The Last of Us

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Re: the last of us leaked early amazing review

Postby Rikitatsu » Jun 16, 2013 7:26 pm

I don't think Sony did a massive bribe campaign for all these sites, a lot of gamers I know love the crap out of this game, different strokes for different folks.

I haven't played the game myself (Don't have a PS3) but I'm interested in the story and am currently watching a playthrough on Youtube. I gotta say, I agree with you with the fact that this is more survival and less horror, so far there hasn't been a truly terrifying moment from what I've seen, then again, I'm not the one playing it, so disregard me.

Checkpoints in horror games are the norm these days, even the dreaded Amnesia got manual saves anywhere anytime, I wasn't expecting The Last of Us to feature a save system similar to classic REs. But boy do I hope these developers make the deaths have severe consequences. A prime example would be Dark/Demon's Souls series. You don't get a Game Over when you die, but you lose your Souls/Humanity. It would be great if Horror games these days would implement a similar system.

I sure hope The Evil Within's don't have regular checkpoints.
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Re: the last of us leaked early amazing review

Postby Mr. Sean » Jun 16, 2013 8:29 pm

I don't mind autosaves. I just hope TEW can strike a good balance between not having to autosave all the time and saving so infrequently that dying just becomes really inconvenient, like the Noveria mission in Mass Effect where dying leads to losing like an hour or so's worth of progress.

Personally, I wasn't expecting The Last of Us to make me shit my pants or anything. I was expecting it to be something like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or Metro where it had some horror elements but wasn't a real survival horror game. Looks like I was right about it.
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Re: the last of us leaked early amazing review

Postby Saint Ste7en » Jun 17, 2013 2:40 am

Rikitatsu wrote:I don't think Sony did a massive bribe campaign for all these sites, a lot of gamers I know love the crap out of this game, different strokes for different folks.

It deserves praise, but when Jim Sterling says this:
The Last of Us is a true survival horror, and by that I don't mean it has terrible controls, limited save files, or any other other shallow understanding of the genre. It's an intimidating, sometimes terrifying game, all about approaching deadly situations with care and managing sparse resources to make the most of whatever's available.
Something is wrong and I'm not giving Sony the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Jim Sterling has a habit of focusing on the negatives of a game during all of his reviews; he always keeps a stern and sarcastic tone, even in his Dead Space 2 review. But comes The Last of Us and his writing style changed and he's now on his knees with his tongue hanging out. This is Sterling's praise from a 9.5 review of Dead Space 2:
When you're not straining your ears to pick up the chat, however, Dead Space 2's quality is utterly astounding. Aside from the occasional physics glitch (the bane of all ragdoll-flavored games), Visceral's latest effort is one that smacks of perfectionism on the part of the studio.




I'll tell you what, if Ben Croshaw talks about the flaws of this game I'll let it go, but if even he calls it flawless I'll know Sony's up to no good.
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Re: the last of us leaked early amazing review

Postby Rikitatsu » Jun 19, 2013 2:42 pm

So I just finished watching a playthrough of the game on Youtube.

Yeah... It's hardly a Survival Horror, there is almost as much action as RE4 (or more). So it's weird seeing journalists or gamers alike downplay RE4 for being an action game, yet they praise TLoU as the return of Survival Horror.

I haven't played the game, so I can't comment on on the gameplay, but from what I've seen, its definitely has Survival...But little horror. (Most of which is jump scares)

That said, the game got great story and characters, I feel its the game that makes use of Naughty Dog's strengths as developers.
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Re: the last of us leaked early amazing review

Postby IkariKH » Jun 20, 2013 12:44 am

Horror is subjective. When you have infected mutants crowding a dark room ready to pile on you and rip your flesh off while you sneak around trying not to draw their attention, I think its within reason to say your game has horror elements.

I also find it hard to believe a game that relies heavily on slow paced strategy, item conservation, stealth and survival would be flagged as a "Generic Action Game".

Honestly, I just think some of you will never be pleased or happy.

Resident Evil 1 is considered a Survival Horror game yet it relies on item management and blasting enemies with bazookas and shotguns.

I'm not sure how you can call this generic action but feel RE is horror.

Yea I get the autosave complaint but heres the rub, Gaming and Gamers today are VASTLY different than they were years ago.

Back when RE1 came out for example, If I got decapped by a hunter and my last save was an hour ago, I'd load it right back up and have at it again.

Now a days after gaming for over 15 years, and having been there done that a million times, I'm at the point where if theres 20 guys in an area and I spend 20 minutes stealth killing all of them only to get bs killed at tge last second and have to restart all over again, I'm likely gonna turn the game off because I don't have the same patience anymore. Games arent as new and fresh as they once were so I'm no where near as motivated to care anymore about trying to be perfect.

And most gamers now a days have far less patience than I do. So if your game takes a half hour to clear an area and one death makes you start over for another half hour, most of todays ADD prone kids will never finish your game.

So criticizing the game for simply providing a feature pretty much required in this day and age is silly.

Remember when Dead Rising used bathrooms to save in a system similiar to RE1? Remember how all the reviews and gamers slammed the hell out of the game for it and cited it as one of the largest complaints about the game?

Times have changed and old mechsnics dont fly these days as gamers care less about accomplishments for the sake of it and more about bulldozing through a game just to say they beat it.

Sad but true.

So dont criticize the game. Its not ND's fault. TLoU is not a game where punishing the player for dying would provide any benefit, only annoyance.

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Re: the last of us leaked early amazing review

Postby Rikitatsu » Jun 20, 2013 1:09 pm

Horror is subjective. When you have infected mutants crowding a dark room ready to pile on you and rip your flesh off while you sneak around trying not to draw their attention, I think its within reason to say your game has horror elements.

I also find it hard to believe a game that relies heavily on slow paced strategy, item conservation, stealth and survival would be flagged as a "Generic Action Game".

Honestly, I just think some of you will never be pleased or happy.


You say it has horror elements, of course it does. No one contested that. But those elements seemed few, most of the time from what I've seen you were fighting against humans In a cover-shooter or stealth segments. The infected parts seemed just as horrific as Left 4 Dead, I can't imagine myself having fear while crouching infront of a monster and insta-killing him with a shiv, while there are one or three characters chatting with me and helping me, but hey, I didn't play the game.

And I have no problem with this, or in the game in general. But it really annoys me when this gets called a horror game, and RE4 an action game.

If you're gonna talk "horror elements" Resident Evil 4 got many (and more varied) Like the Regenerator, Dr. Salvador, Garrador, and Verdugo, etc...

There is this hypocrisy amongst gamer that they'd call all the horror games in the past 5 years or so as "Pure action Games", but TLoU, which has as much action as those games get to be called a True Survival Horror.

I know this might sound silly from someone who hasn't played the game, but its something that I couldn't help but notice.

About the saves, I agree with you that it's frustrating in this day and age, which is why I suggested a system similar to Dark Souls, meaning you give the Deaths in the game severe consequences, while still providing checkpoints.
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Re: the last of us leaked early amazing review

Postby IkariKH » Jun 20, 2013 2:55 pm

This game has limited ammo and supplies and forces you to stealth kill or even run from enemies. Trying to go guns a blazing gets you killed more often than not.

RE4's answer to enemies was handimg you your own personal military arsenal and enough ammo to start a civil war. And if you still didnt have enough ammo, enemies dropped even more.

And enemies were flooded at you for you to blast away with in near every step of the game.


RE4 is FAR more of an action game than TLoU.

It's all about the focus. Two games can have the same elements but be completely different depending on where the focus is put.

TLoU spreads out its enemy encounters and the focus of those encounters isnt on standing around blasting anything that moves with shotguns and mine launchers.

RE4 makes you feel safe at any given time because you're incredibly powerful and well equipped to deal with enemies. And you can also open your menu in the middle of a fight and heal, reload etc without consequence.

TLoU makes you very vulnerable to enemies who can easily overwhelm you. Healing and weapon reloading, crafting etc is all done in real time. And you need to strategize and think quick on your feet to survive. You cant just bulldoze through enemies mindlessly.

Those are huge differences as to wjy RE4 can be considered an action horror game while TLoU is more Survival Horror.


Also, all the criticism about the AI partners is unmeritted. Its clear that in order to strike a balance between making them follow you and help you without doing everything for you, their AI would get in the way at times. And to prevent them from constantly screwing up your stealth and getting you spotted, they opted to simply make them invisible to enemies line of sight unless they open fire on them.

It's a gameplay mechanic meant to preserve the gameplay at the expense of suspension of disbelief. What can you do.

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Re: the last of us leaked early amazing review

Postby Rikitatsu » Jun 20, 2013 3:20 pm

Not sure why you are talking about the Survival elements and the A.I ... I never said anything about those so it's kind of a Strawman argument.

As far as the action is concerned, it doesn't matter if you headshot a guy or smash his head with a brick, action is action, and TLoU had a lot of these Pure Action moments SPOILER: (Parts like when you get to the Sniper, and the Hydroelectric PowerPlant bandit raid, etc...)

I disagree about enemies being more threatening in TLoU than in RE4, the lack of ammo aside, its much easier to deal with the enemies of The Last of Us compared to RE4... When the Clickers try to attack you, you get a QTE prompt to shiv them in the neck and break free, killing them in the process... And those are the most threatening type of enemies in the game.


I won't argue about the gameplay any further since I didn't play the thing, afterall. Maybe when I get my hands on the game, I'll feel the fear everybody's feeling, but from what I've seen, it doesn't look like it.
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Re: the last of us leaked early amazing review

Postby IkariKH » Jun 20, 2013 4:19 pm

You dont get the shiv prompt unless 1) you upgrade to that ability and 2) you actually have a shiv crafted to use.

Its essentially like defensive weapons in re remake.

And you have to forgo upgrading other abilities to take that one. For example, i'm 76% through the game and still dont have the ability because i found max health and healing speed more important since I only ever make shivs for doors and dont waste resources on them otherwise. And its impossible to get all abilities in one play through. Hell i only have both bars on max health upgraded and one each on crafting and healing speed at this point. Theres limited resources.

So no you cant just go through the game with no worries about enemies harming you.

Also, bloaters are just as if not more dangerous than clickers.

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Re: the last of us leaked early amazing review

Postby Saint Ste7en » Jun 21, 2013 3:04 pm

Now that I've gotten used to the absolutely bizarre button configuration and now treat the game like an action-adventure game it's infinitely more fun and I'd give it an 8.5 with a point minus for glitches (some game breaking 'red' glitches, but mostly just immersion cracking 'green' glitches) and .5 for the unfamiliar button configuration. I did take away a point for the generic story, but likeable characters and a sensational ending made up for that point.

But I'm disappointed in the game thanks to critics hyping it up as one of the scariest horror games and I didn't even get a HINT of fear until I entered the basement of the hotel (someone actually knew what the hell he was doing when he designed that place). But too soon it all ends and you're back to the dumb old action junk again. I would have had a MUCH better first impression on the game if critics hadn't blathered on "the anxiety" that it doesn't remotely deliver.

As far as fear is concerned, the biggest fear accomplishment this game had to offer me was in the hotel right before I was reunited with Ellie. I've never had a QTE create tension before, but just like the basement it was over before I could say "Oh my God." But in a way that's good because I wouldn't want a QTE session lasting forever.

Seriously, IkariKH, give me some specific places where you felt tension because combat isn't scary thanks the auto-save which acts like a saftey-net under a trapeze that gradually gets higher as the stakes go up (thanks to the mid-battle checkpoints). The lack of supplies (especially on survivor difficulty) makes me stand up begging for euthanasia if I got hit with a lucky shot or screwed up somehow. Being spotted isn't scary because there are no stake and killing zombies is so easy that it only takes a few tries before I learned the right strategy for clearing out a whole room of baddies without being hit.




Look, it all comes down to the auto-save if you're going to try and make a player scared to be spotted from a group of random dudes with guns you have to raise the stakes to where the player doesn't want to die. I make the slightest mistake in survivor difficulty and I just let the hunters shoot me so I can start over. And with the zombies and combat, upping the difficulty with insta-kills doesn't improve fear it just resets any tension and immersion that was built. It also makes me laugh when I think of RE4 and 5. About how hearing a chainsaw was so terrifying I would stop fighting and just run. How I would literally scream out "Oh fuck!" when I saw a Reaper walk towards me. Insta-kills are a fear tactic that should be used sparingly. Clickers are just as threatening since they kill in one hit -- even more so since they're faster. But they're not as scary because they're everywhere. Even Bloaters aren't that scary. Get behind some cover so they can't charge at you. Then burn it with fire or stick a nail bomb on it's fat bum.



I'd call this an action-adventure, actually I'd call it adventure-action, considering the adventure aspect is so much stronger than the action. I generally hate action games, but the adventure aspects were so strong that I can't help but loving this game. But like Rikitatsu, I am mostly irritated at the hypocrisy that this game is called a full-blown survival horror. It's a good and fun game, but I'll be damned if I'd ever call this cover-based shooting action-adventure game "survival horror". Still, my biggest issue is the reviews. They feels shallow and most are overlooking flaws that REALLY need to be noted. My favorite reviewrs are failing to mention obvious flaws that they WOULD mention in any other game. It makes me challenge their integrity, or at least Sony's practices.



Also, once you get used to melee combat bulldozing through enemies is the best "strategy" for mandatory fight areas. The game sometimes has zombies charging at you (this happens most often in Bill's chapters) and, in my first run, I tried to fight them by shooting and keeping my distance... and I died a lot. Second playthrough on Survivor difficulty all I did was punch (like it was a hack-and-slash game) and used the ample bottles and bricks scattered around, shooting only at clickers when I didn't have bricks or bottles for them. Wow, there were times I got through without being touched by a runner. Even on the hardest difficulty, treating it as an action game by throwing a brick at a zombie and bashing it's head open with a melee weapon make the game infinitely easier than trying to be cautious.





As far as the AI following you, this is the best as it gets, kinda. Sometimes Ellie would be curled up on at the corner of a wall where I need to be so I could see around it (since you can't use listening mode in survivor) and Bill's footsteps are too bloody loud, but other than those nitpicks the followers are fine. They help without getting in the way of gameplay, much unlike Sheva and almost every other game with followers, minus fat Carlos from Resident Evil: Revelations.
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