Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

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Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby Rikitatsu » Aug 03, 2017 4:50 pm

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New info about the upgrade and crafting systems, and some new screenshots were posted In Bethesda's official blog. Plus an excerpt from Bethesda's Livestage at E3 '17 featuring director Johanas.

The interview mentions the name of the new crossbow: "Warden Crossbow", as well as the confirmation of a new bolt type: Smoke Bolts. Check it out in the link below.

Bethesda Blog Post | Credit: gmc1992 | liontamer
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby Autoignition » Aug 03, 2017 7:38 pm

:| :| :| :| :| :|

The fact that the words "skill tree" exist in conjunction with this game makes me really uncomfortable for some reason.
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby robflee23 » Aug 03, 2017 11:05 pm

Autoignition wrote::| :| :| :| :| :|

The fact that the words "skill tree" exist in conjunction with this game makes me really uncomfortable for some reason.



Every upgrade system is essentially a "skill tree" because if there are upgrades then that means you're going to have to favor certain skills over others. Honestly to me it sounds exactly like the first games upgrade system just a little more fleshed out with more unique skills. I kinda wish weapons still took green gel to be upgraded because it forced you to choose between getting that extra stamina or that extra firepower on a gun, but I'm curious to see the full set of skills and how much they will cost.
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby Dusk Golem » Aug 04, 2017 1:44 am

Autoignition wrote::| :| :| :| :| :|

The fact that the words "skill tree" exist in conjunction with this game makes me really uncomfortable for some reason.

robflee23 wrote:
Autoignition wrote::| :| :| :| :| :|

The fact that the words "skill tree" exist in conjunction with this game makes me really uncomfortable for some reason.



Every upgrade system is essentially a "skill tree" because if there are upgrades then that means you're going to have to favor certain skills over others. Honestly to me it sounds exactly like the first games upgrade system just a little more fleshed out with more unique skills. I kinda wish weapons still took green gel to be upgraded because it forced you to choose between getting that extra stamina or that extra firepower on a gun, but I'm curious to see the full set of skills and how much they will cost.


That's what I was going to say, the original game had a simple skill tree system because you needed to upgraded some a skill before you upgraded the next level of said skill and had to pick what you had to upgrade rather than upgrades coming automatically (or not existing). This said, I imagine this game has gone a bit more advanced than that, but it honestly doesn't sound that different than the first game. They just set categories to be a bit more varied and now have green gel/weapon parts distinction, added new things to upgrade, and now can use gel & weapon parts to craft items/temporary boosters as well rather than just upgrades.
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby Rikitatsu » Aug 04, 2017 3:33 am

I think Auto is referring to actual 'skills', like stealth killing behind walls and this Bullet Cascade thing (which honestly sounds like something from an RPG game)...Unlocking such abilities was never in the first game.

I'm more uncomfortable with the "craft any ammunition" part. I feel like it can potentially unbalance the game, and take away incentives to experiment with other weapons besides your favorite. Like, I could be overflowing with Shotgun ammo if I ignore other weapons? Eh...

"Survival Action" and all that, remember?
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby SutterCane » Aug 04, 2017 5:16 am

Some of what I'm reading sounds like a good idea.

"Active upgrades" is really vague as described here, how do I activate them, with more gel?. Depending on how it's implemented we could see an much stronger melee attack that requires brain gel to use, imagine priming Seb to be able to suplex a Haunted. Maybe I'm letting my imagination run away but as a system idea it's full of fantastic potential. Of course I could have completely misunderstood the idea and maybe it's not a case of use gel now for a temporary boost vs save for later. Might just be cooldown crap.

Smaller things like the ability to use a syringe to avoid fatal damage is potentially going to have far more impact than people realise. All the complaints about one hit kills can now be rectified with an item, deceptively so however as avoiding death but wasting valuable resources will have a much longer term effect than dying and using no extra resources. I actually wanted a life system in play and this is sort of similar so I'm pretty happy about this.

The crafting system that allows you to craft whatever ammo you like could open up so much more potential for single weapon only runs. You can do them in the original but I wouldn't recommend them to anyone normal, except pistol only that's fun and doesn't need anything fancy. At the same time being able to craft on the fly at a cost could create a genuinely interesting planning wrinkle. Though I'm hopeful that if the system is ultimately unbalanced that solely crafting on the spot could be an option to add more balance to a playthrough if the penalty is high enough.

When I see stealth as it's own upgrade category that gives me a great deal of hope for a potentially much more regulated stealth system at base stats. Again people that aren't me could get the batman-predator stealth power trip they want. Basically I want it's viability as an option limited by upgrades as much as possible.

Sometimes when I read about TEW2 and they bang on about player choice and agency, skill trees and crafting ammo, I think they might be moving towards more of an immersive sim experience like Bethesda's Prey. Being able to approach any situation however you like doesn't sound like it would jive well with a resource management system. If I stealth my way past every encounter resource free then I don't understand how I'm supposed to feel any stress from potentially running low on supplies. Stealth prevents me from running low, stealth makes it so running low has no meaningful consequence by being a viable resource free option.

So I guess why I seem to be a bit more happy about a lot of this than some people here is that I thought from trailers I'd be more overpowered from the start. Knowing that much of what they've shown is tied to an upgrade system for me means that I can ignore it. Same with crafting, though depending on its implementation it could be balanced. Still when I read sentences like "...so you won't have to agonize over what to spend your hard-earned resources on" my heart does sink, almost the entire appeal of the original for me.

Very exciting to hear more about the gameplay, would kill for a 10 minute video showing this stuff in action. So far with interviews there's been an element of offering all things to everyone, this is the first time I've felt I might be a part of that everyone. Up until now it seemed unbalanced to me, these sound like tools I can use for balancing though its still depends a lot on implementation.
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby Dusk Golem » Aug 04, 2017 5:18 am

Rikitatsu wrote:I think Auto is referring to actual 'skills', like stealth killing behind walls and this Bullet Cascade thing (which honestly sounds like something from an RPG game)...Unlocking such abilities was never in the first game.

I'm more uncomfortable with the "craft any ammunition" part. I feel like it can potentially unbalance the game, and take away incentives to experiment with other weapons besides your favorite. Like, I could be overflowing with Shotgun ammo if I ignore other weapons? Eh...

"Survival Action" and all that, remember?


Honestly I think it's the natural progression of the first game using those parts to craft bolts for the Agony Crossbow, except now they also upgrade weapons and can also be used to craft other types of items and ammunition. The key will be in the balance, but I had wondered in the original game why it was limited to the crossbow.

The skills I'll wait to see how they play in action, they remind me less of an RPG and more of the special powers in some older horror games, like this is a weird comparison but I'm reminded of Kuon for the PS2 which was a Japanese horror game where you cast spells, but some spells like summon spells were very rare and cost a lot more (some would cost health, mana, etc even when used and you only had a super limited amount of them).

I think depending on how it's tackled it could be a good or questionable decision, but I'll choose to have faith. I think it's supportive they mention the upgrading and crafting stuff with player choice, since the sense I got is the sequel will have a lot more openess in how players can tackle things and that includes how they build Sebastian and use stuff, it sounds there will be no way to upgrade all or even most of your stuff on the first run so you have to choose what you'd like to specialize in. Also this gives a use for green gel and weapon parts even if you did New Game+ a dozen times and had a fully upgraded Sebastian. Hoping the difficulty of the game matches the ability to craft stuff though.
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby dan76 » Aug 04, 2017 7:25 am

From the blog:
Athleticism – For the Sebastian on the go, the Athleticism upgrade options will let you increase your Stamina Gauge and give you a chance to auto-avoid certain types of incoming attacks.


Auto avoid certain attacks?!? Not sure about this.

And on the Warden Crossbow:
You’ll likely come to favor certain types of bolts over others, whether you’re a fan of the distraction and stun factor offered by the Shock and Smoke Bolts, or you like the destructive capabilities of the Harpoon and Explosive Bolts.


So no mention of the Flash bolts! Well, they were op in the original game so if they're not in I won't miss them.

Most of this sounds good. I'm sure there will be that adaptive difficulty thing to keep your ammo in check - for instance if you craft a ton of shotgun ammo I guess you won't be finding as much from enemy drops etc.

I might have this wrong but it sounds like you can use some green gel to boost a certain attack or something for a short time. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. It certainly looks like they've expanded the gameplay by quite a large margin, I just hope the replay value is there.

I'd love a new game plus mode with a ton of extra enemies, rather than it just being there for speed runners. Or a mode where the enemy placement is mixed up. I've never understood why survival horror games don't do this. Keep the core enemy placement the same but add in extra random enemies, your basic infected types.

Anyhow, not too long to wait now.
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby Autoignition » Aug 04, 2017 7:41 pm

Yeah, I didn't really need to be mansplained to about what skill trees are, but thanks I guess anyway guys.

Riki has the right of it. When I think "skill tree" I think of Diablo 2. I think of Dragon Age. Basically, I think of action RPGs. There's a difference between the upgrade system in TEW1 and the skill tree system that they're describing for TEW2. In TEW1, you couldn't really call it a "tree" so much because pretty much everything was just survivability. It didn't really branch off the way that Bethesda's talking about for TEW2.

Basically, I read this post and came away thinking that some jackass at Bethesda thought it would be a good idea to take the character customization of action RPGs and combine them with the weapons upgrading of The Last of Us and yet try to package and sell it as a horror experience. It sounds... frankly, awful. It's like they're trying to make the game appeal to so many people that, in the end, it will appeal to no one, because every single thing that this game is going to try to do, even if done competently, has already been done better in other games that stay committed to one genre. I'm having flashbacks to the Tomb Raider reboot, which had the same problem.

Everything they've said about the game so far just makes me feel like they're trying to scream LOOK WE'VE WESTERNIZED IT LOOK AT HOW WESTERN THIS GAME DESIGN IS NOW and that's a goddamn fucking shame, because if 2017 taught us anything, it's that Japanese game design still has wide, massive appeal in Western markets. My expectations for TEW2 are now lower than ever after this blog post, because it more or less confirmed for me that this game will not have any real sense of identity. It sounds so bottom-line generic and bland that it makes my skin itch.
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby Dusk Golem » Aug 04, 2017 10:28 pm

Autoignition wrote:Yeah, I didn't really need to be mansplained to about what skill trees are, but thanks I guess anyway guys.

Riki has the right of it. When I think "skill tree" I think of Diablo 2. I think of Dragon Age. Basically, I think of action RPGs. There's a difference between the upgrade system in TEW1 and the skill tree system that they're describing for TEW2. In TEW1, you couldn't really call it a "tree" so much because pretty much everything was just survivability. It didn't really branch off the way that Bethesda's talking about for TEW2.

Basically, I read this post and came away thinking that some jackass at Bethesda thought it would be a good idea to take the character customization of action RPGs and combine them with the weapons upgrading of The Last of Us and yet try to package and sell it as a horror experience. It sounds... frankly, awful. It's like they're trying to make the game appeal to so many people that, in the end, it will appeal to no one, because every single thing that this game is going to try to do, even if done competently, has already been done better in other games that stay committed to one genre. I'm having flashbacks to the Tomb Raider reboot, which had the same problem.

Everything they've said about the game so far just makes me feel like they're trying to scream LOOK WE'VE WESTERNIZED IT LOOK AT HOW WESTERN THIS GAME DESIGN IS NOW and that's a goddamn fucking shame, because if 2017 taught us anything, it's that Japanese game design still has wide, massive appeal in Western markets. My expectations for TEW2 are now lower than ever after this blog post, because it more or less confirmed for me that this game will not have any real sense of identity. It sounds so bottom-line generic and bland that it makes my skin itch.


...That wasn't really mansplaining? I was just kind of thinking outloud since I'm digesting the information too and disagreed, no reason to be a bit hostile about it.

The system I think is less because they're westernizing and more because Mikami loves upgrading systems, I know he's not directing but he actually had 'skill tree' like upgrading systems before most other games implemented them. P.N.03, Resident Evil 4, God Hand, Vanquish, Shadows of the Damned, and Evil Within all had upgrade systems, and I know he's not directing this one but it sounds like one of his upgrade systems as compared to most there's usually some weird quirkiness to what can be upgraded which add weird buffs. This is just my thoughts on it, I can see the RPG comparision because that's what most people think of when they think of skill trees, but there's literally been systems like this in every Mikami game for the last 14 years. And the difference to me compared to say, an RPG skill tree system, is that often the way you upgrade it is more focused on actual play style than just upping your characters based stats, and often you can actually feel the difference in what you're upgrading which is why I think he likes them so much. He puts a lot of emphasize in 'feeling' the progression, and for it to be a way to give player choice and improve something selectively over the course of a game.

The first game of his which had an upgrade system like this was P.N.03, which was a very flawed game but had you have multiple suits which gave you drastically different powers and you could upgrade the different suits to fit whichever one you liked playing with the most or wanted to be better in certain areas, but it was impossible to upgrade every suit fully on your first run. And in my opinion he continued this onto Resident Evil 4, which everyone will remember the most. It sounds less like westernizing to me on account he's been doing this way before it was popular and I honestly think it was less Bethesda stepped in than Mikami just really likes upgrade systems. We won't know if it fits in TEW2 or not until we know obviously, but I tend to think it might actually work well here? Especially since they're having a very vocal expression compared to the original they're having a focus on multiple playstyles, which I always viewed the upgrade systems in these games to be more an extension of play style choice more than it being there to check off something on a list of things the game needs.
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