Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby Autoignition » Aug 05, 2017 12:24 am

Dusk Golem wrote:...That wasn't really mansplaining? I was just kind of thinking outloud since I'm digesting the information too and disagreed, no reason to be a bit hostile about it.


I don't recall singling you out or even addressing you directly. If my comment made you feel some type of way, though, might be something worth examining.

The system I think is less because they're westernizing and more because Mikami loves upgrading systems, I know he's not directing but he actually had 'skill tree' like upgrading systems before most other games implemented them. P.N.03, Resident Evil 4, God Hand, Vanquish, Shadows of the Damned, and Evil Within all had upgrade systems, and I know he's not directing this one but it sounds like one of his upgrade systems as compared to most there's usually some weird quirkiness to what can be upgraded which add weird buffs.


I'm not opposed to upgrade systems. You won't find a single post in my history complaining about the one in TEW1, nor will you find one of me bitching about the ones in RE4 or SotD if there existed a way to go back through all of my internet history. I'm actually pretty sure that even the concept of complaining about it never entered my mind, because I enjoy the way they were implemented, and they always felt like integral parts of the games they were in.

Like I said, it's specifically the skill tree that makes me wary. Building your character in Diablo 2 makes sense because the characters are just vessels for the combat (let me tell u about my Fanatic Zealadin on hardcore mode). Building your character in a horror game feels like it defeats the purpose of horror. Even if they're touting this as Survival Action, even the gold star standard for Survival Action (TLoU) didn't have character building like this, because it likely would have felt thematically inconsistent. And that might be one of the only few compliments I ever give TLoU. The gameplay and the storytelling both meshed well together to deliver a consistent experience, as opposed to something like Uncharted that creates a crazy amount of dissonance between narrative and gameplay. This whole "Who Is Your Sebastian?" shit is garbage that warps the tone of the game before the thing even hits shelves.

This is just my thoughts on it, I can see the RPG comparision because that's what most people think of when they think of skill trees, but there's literally been systems like this in every Mikami game for the last 14 years. And the difference to me compared to say, an RPG skill tree system, is that often the way you upgrade it is more focused on actual play style than just upping your characters based stats, and often you can actually feel the difference in what you're upgrading which is why I think he likes them so much. He puts a lot of emphasize in 'feeling' the progression, and for it to be a way to give player choice and improve something selectively over the course of a game.


Skyrim's entire character progression was built explicitly around your chosen play style, so I have no idea where you're getting the idea that this is somehow different from an RPG system. There are no pre-set classes in Skyrim. You feel out the world, decide the way you want to play, and then get better at the things you do the most often. You tailor the character exactly to your play style. Fallout 4 had a similar style of progression, where even though you had starting stats, you could still tailor your character around what you wanted to do if you decided at some point during the game to play differently.

So, really, the way that Bethesda describes this system for TEW sounds very... well... Bethesda-y to me. And not very Mikami-y. And seeing as how I don't particularly like Bethesda games much at all (seriously, TEW is the only franchise of theirs that I've ever been truly invested in), this bums me out. A lot.

We won't know if it fits in TEW2 or not until we know obviously, but I tend to think it might actually work well here? Especially since they're having a very vocal expression compared to the original they're having a focus on multiple playstyles, which I always viewed the upgrade systems in these games to be more an extension of play style choice more than it being there to check off something on a list of things the game needs.


It sounds like we're looking for fundamentally different things from our horror games, and we'll likely never see eye to eye on this. To me, a horror game shouldn't be about choosing a play style. To me, a horror game should be about limiting the player and forcing them to make due to survive. TEW1 did that very elegantly. You had to choose what you wanted to prioritize in the upgrade system, because at the end of the day, you were only given so many tools to survive. TEW2 sounds like the player is spoiled for choice. At that point, the game becomes far less of a horror experience in my eyes, because it allows the player to get comfortable with what they're doing.

I know, I know. Survival Action. But if that's what they're going with, Bethesda needs to drop the pretense in their marketing and just admit what the game's genre really is instead of constantly trying to reassure us that this will be a full horror experience for horror fans. Really, I think that's my biggest issue here. There's no consistent message that Bethesda marketing is giving us about this game; everything is all over the place. I don't know what the fuck this game is even meant to be or trying to accomplish, at this point. TEW1 never had this problem. From the beginning, TEW1 was always pitched to us as true Survival Horror made by the grandfather of Survival Horror in order to bring the genre of Survival Horror back into the forefront of people's minds. With TEW2? I have no idea what I'm looking at. Is it a horror game? An action game? A stealth shooter with action RPG elements? What the fuck is it?
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby Dusk Golem » Aug 05, 2017 12:51 am

Autoignition wrote:
Dusk Golem wrote:...That wasn't really mansplaining? I was just kind of thinking outloud since I'm digesting the information too and disagreed, no reason to be a bit hostile about it.


I don't recall singling you out or even addressing you directly. If my comment made you feel some type of way, though, might be something worth examining.

The system I think is less because they're westernizing and more because Mikami loves upgrading systems, I know he's not directing but he actually had 'skill tree' like upgrading systems before most other games implemented them. P.N.03, Resident Evil 4, God Hand, Vanquish, Shadows of the Damned, and Evil Within all had upgrade systems, and I know he's not directing this one but it sounds like one of his upgrade systems as compared to most there's usually some weird quirkiness to what can be upgraded which add weird buffs.


I'm not opposed to upgrade systems. You won't find a single post in my history complaining about the one in TEW1, nor will you find one of me bitching about the ones in RE4 or SotD if there existed a way to go back through all of my internet history. I'm actually pretty sure that even the concept of complaining about it never entered my mind, because I enjoy the way they were implemented, and they always felt like integral parts of the games they were in.

Like I said, it's specifically the skill tree that makes me wary. Building your character in Diablo 2 makes sense because the characters are just vessels for the combat (let me tell u about my Fanatic Zealadin on hardcore mode). Building your character in a horror game feels like it defeats the purpose of horror. Even if they're touting this as Survival Action, even the gold star standard for Survival Action (TLoU) didn't have character building like this, because it likely would have felt thematically inconsistent. And that might be one of the only few compliments I ever give TLoU. The gameplay and the storytelling both meshed well together to deliver a consistent experience, as opposed to something like Uncharted that creates a crazy amount of dissonance between narrative and gameplay. This whole "Who Is Your Sebastian?" shit is garbage that warps the tone of the game before the thing even hits shelves.

This is just my thoughts on it, I can see the RPG comparision because that's what most people think of when they think of skill trees, but there's literally been systems like this in every Mikami game for the last 14 years. And the difference to me compared to say, an RPG skill tree system, is that often the way you upgrade it is more focused on actual play style than just upping your characters based stats, and often you can actually feel the difference in what you're upgrading which is why I think he likes them so much. He puts a lot of emphasize in 'feeling' the progression, and for it to be a way to give player choice and improve something selectively over the course of a game.


Skyrim's entire character progression was built explicitly around your chosen play style, so I have no idea where you're getting the idea that this is somehow different from an RPG system. There are no pre-set classes in Skyrim. You feel out the world, decide the way you want to play, and then get better at the things you do the most often. You tailor the character exactly to your play style. Fallout 4 had a similar style of progression, where even though you had starting stats, you could still tailor your character around what you wanted to do if you decided at some point during the game to play differently.

So, really, the way that Bethesda describes this system for TEW sounds very... well... Bethesda-y to me. And not very Mikami-y. And seeing as how I don't particularly like Bethesda games much at all (seriously, TEW is the only franchise of theirs that I've ever been truly invested in), this bums me out. A lot.

We won't know if it fits in TEW2 or not until we know obviously, but I tend to think it might actually work well here? Especially since they're having a very vocal expression compared to the original they're having a focus on multiple playstyles, which I always viewed the upgrade systems in these games to be more an extension of play style choice more than it being there to check off something on a list of things the game needs.


It sounds like we're looking for fundamentally different things from our horror games, and we'll likely never see eye to eye on this. To me, a horror game shouldn't be about choosing a play style. To me, a horror game should be about limiting the player and forcing them to make due to survive. TEW1 did that very elegantly. You had to choose what you wanted to prioritize in the upgrade system, because at the end of the day, you were only given so many tools to survive. TEW2 sounds like the player is spoiled for choice. At that point, the game becomes far less of a horror experience in my eyes, because it allows the player to get comfortable with what they're doing.

I know, I know. Survival Action. But if that's what they're going with, Bethesda needs to drop the pretense in their marketing and just admit what the game's genre really is instead of constantly trying to reassure us that this will be a full horror experience for horror fans. Really, I think that's my biggest issue here. There's no consistent message that Bethesda marketing is giving us about this game; everything is all over the place. I don't know what the fuck this game is even meant to be or trying to accomplish, at this point. TEW1 never had this problem. From the beginning, TEW1 was always pitched to us as true Survival Horror made by the grandfather of Survival Horror in order to bring the genre of Survival Horror back into the forefront of people's minds. With TEW2? I have no idea what I'm looking at. Is it a horror game? An action game? A stealth shooter with action RPG elements? What the fuck is it?


I quoted you in discussion and was one of only two people who quoted you, so of course the connection will be made. Though I worry sometimes how I come off, I have a habit to blab a lot when I'm enthusiastic about something, but know it doesn't come from anyplace where I think I'm right or think others opinions are below mine. I have a love for people and an enthusiasm for horror, and I love talking about it with people. But I have a bad habit of going on and on, friends of mine tease whenever I start typing that here comes another one of my novels, so I was worried if something I said may have come off more talking down to you than I ever intended. At least in my mind, I'm not especially right about anything but I'll try to explain my position and thought process in discussion. I also admit I may be a bit more sensitive to it right now because me and one of my closest friends had a big misunderstanding a couple days ago, she and I had a bad fight over something which was both of us being stubborn. We talked it over and a big part of it was the word choices we had used which inflicted some unintentional aggression on the other, and that's certainly not how I want to come off.

I think we need more details though the more I begin to think about dissecting it. Because the information we have my picture of it seems more in-line with past systems. Like in Resident Evil 4 special 'skills' for weapons are unlocked by fully upgrading something, like when you completely upgrade the base handguns piercing ability you get a special skill with it which makes it 3x more likely to get headshots. Or the Striker shotgun, which was always a favorite of mine, when fully upgraded gets a ridiculous amount of ammo so it can have 100 ammo clips. Weird stuff, but they give objectives to work towards since you have to put in a lot of your money in RE4 to unlock these special traits. How it's described it sounds like this sort of system to me, though they use the word skill tree they don't say you need to upgrade one thing to upgrade another ala' Dead Space or something.

I should clarify I'm actually with you on the Bethesda thing, the only games of theirs I have enjoyed fully are The Evil Within & Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth. I'm a horror enthusiast, it's what I mostly play, and I'm not big on the open-world RPG scene. I haven't played a Fallout game and I haven't played an Elder scrolls game for more than two hours, so I can't say much there.

But I enjoy a very broad range of horror games, currently my two most anticipated titles are the remake of White Day: A Labyrinth Named School and The Evil Within 2. I both love things like Dead Space and Parasite Even while also loving the Silent Hill games or Hellnight or Kuon. I've played a lot and I have a broad interest in the genre, and I really enjoyed the original Evil Within. But I have talked to a lot of people who didn't enjoy it as much, and one of my closer friends ended up disliking it immensely because he thought the stealth in the game was terrible and wanted it to play more to how he played, so going off some discussion I've had with him and others who disliked TEW, I can see why they're making an emphasis on play style even if I would've been perfectly happy had they just done the same thing again but with new locations, enemies, and the like. More so I think allowing different play styles was always their goal with the original TEW, almost all the promotional material for the game says the same things that TEW2 is currently saying. They talked a lot about laying traps, upgrading with green gel, limited ammo, fight or flight. I was following the original game since it was Zwei here and joined these forums during that time. The final game didn't go down the play style route they talked about, and I'd be fine if this one didn't either but I think they're trying to expand systems to achieve this as at least going by marketing and interviews they had originally wanted the first game to be in the vein of allowing multiple play styles. Or maybe it's just more marketing, it's hard to say right now.

The thought had crossed my mind about the mixed messages, since they seem to be focused on it being horror, yet action, psychological, yet schlocky, I've been thinking a bit about that since this update too. But I think it's simpler than what they're trying to present, I think everything said so far comes from the place, "how could we take The Evil Within and make it better?" Because everything they've been advertising is directly competing with things people complained about with the first game, IE the stealth, the horror, the gunplay, the story, the upgrade system. While I enjoyed all of those in the original reading general consensus, reviews, and the like will highlight these complaints, and I think it's no coincidence their marketing has been focused on these improvements. What I think is actually going on is the marketing is mix-matched because they're trying to sell their improvements in five VERY different areas. They were all in the original Evil Within, but seem to be 'smoothed out' here. In the gameplay videos it's easy to see how the stealth and gunplay have been improved, and they've been jiving away about the story this time, and this update is about the upgrade system and playstyles. I don't want to talk too far ahead because I honestly don't know and we need to see more, but at least how it comes off to me is they just have worked on expanding the systems from the original game. The gameplay bits we've seen still look very TEW to me, but it's hard to say since we haven't seen one long 'stretch' of gameplay yet, just snippets. But something that sticks out to me is that the gameplay scenarios, the reality bending, the never knowing what to expect next traits of the original game certainly still seem to be present in TEW2. The level design looks a lot like the first game to me, in that sort of weird mixing something more realistic with something very game design-esque, Western meets Eastern horror idea... I can't quite word this, but I've been paying close attention to the level design specifically and that at least still looks very TEW to me, even the more open areas as while they may be larger in space they still are full of flourishes and game-y (can't think of a better word) things areas to explore. Despite the first TEW being very linear, I found it very fun to explore.
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby Autoignition » Aug 05, 2017 1:13 am

I hope you're right about the "simpler than it seems" part, DG. I really do.

And honestly, I can sit here and be salty and bitch and whine and cry and moan all I want, but the fact remains that I was sitting outside with my manager on break having a smoke yesterday, and we were talking about video games, and I told him that I primarily play horror games, and he said, "What, like, The Evil Within?" and my entire face lit up and I perked to attention and started gushing. Both about the game and about you guys. :lol: It just kind of tumbled out of my mouth before I realized what I was saying, and I plugged the forums right then and there.

Even if TEW2 is as terrible as I fear it will be, it won't diminish my love for the series, in all likelihood. All franchises have bad installments. Every single one. It's just the nature of the beast. I already accept this.

For what it's worth, also, I am sorry if I came off as passive-aggressive to you.
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby SutterCane » Aug 05, 2017 7:05 am

Smoke bolts might replace flash, that's a good point and maybe they will be better implemented.

Surely the worry wouldn't be that TEW will have a bad instalment but that it will have an instalment that is considered fantastic by everyone but you. All future games move further and further away from what originally attracted you to them and the developers capable of creating the games you like are now wrapped up with their runaway success. Like Dead Rising sort of. That's where I'm at anyway, though I am easily pleased and would probably enjoy the game purely due to the visuals alone.
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby Autoignition » Aug 05, 2017 11:31 am

SutterCane wrote:Surely the worry wouldn't be that TEW will have a bad instalment but that it will have an instalment that is considered fantastic by everyone but you. All future games move further and further away from what originally attracted you to them and the developers capable of creating the games you like are now wrapped up with their runaway success.


This post gave me a mini existential crisis when I first read it, but there is some part of me that believes that as long as Shinji Mikami stays tied to the franchise, it'll never get that bad. Resident Evil got pretty bad and outright ridiculous at times, but it always got back on track and tightened back up once Mikami cracked the whip.
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Re: Bethesda posts New Info And Screenshots for TEW2

Postby SutterCane » Aug 06, 2017 4:52 am

That's something I'd never considered. Heck with how much Bethesda love DLC and how Tango seemed to have free reign to experiment with it it might not take too long at all to see something aimed solely at fans of the original. Of course I'm still optimistic that heavy smoking, alcohol withdrawal Seb is still one of the Seb choices offered to us from the myriad of Sebs that now exist for us to chose from.
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