Rikitatsu wrote:But the Tango insider was describing the type of game to his friend, not it's marketing label that Bethesda somehow decided in the beginning of development. Also, from the insider's words; "things might change" indicate they are still prototyping and experimenting with the game, and have not yet entered full production. It's highly unlikely to me that Bethesda already decided what to market it as.
A genre's a genre, dude. If Bethesda and Tango decided together that the sequel was going to take a Survival Action approach as opposed to the "Pure Survival Horror" approach, then that's what everyone's going to call it. Sure, it could change depending on the way development goes -- maybe it will become more horror-oriented later on, or maybe it'll become more like a drama (there's certainly enough material in the canon for that to happen, imo), thereby switching it over more firmly in the Action/Adventure category.
But we don't know for sure. All we know is that, right now, it's a Survival Action game. And based on what we know of the "gold standard" of the Survival Action genre (TLoU), there are more than enough similarities between TEW and TLoU -- ESPECIALLY from a gameplay standpoint (for Christ's sake, the two games played almost identically to each other) -- for me to say that even base game TEW can very easily fall into the Survival Action genre. And I reiterate, I would be absolutely mindboggled if Bethesda put Tango to work on a game that was in the exact same genre as TEW without it being TEW. It's just such an extraordinary claim, in my mind.
It's not outrageous to say that as much as it's highly speculative. I mean first of all, you are assuming too much about what Bethesda precieved as negative feedback from the players, most of the criticism surrounding the game was due to technical issues, lack of polish, black bars, late game action-y chapters, etc... I don't think you will find many people who would say it wasn't Survival Horror enough, in fact, that's pretty much what everybody praised the game for. Chapters like Ch.9 is pretty much universally loved even from people who hated the game (Something I observed in TEW's online discussions) and it's the most Pure Survival Horror-ish chapter. It would make sense for Bethesda to build upon what worked in the first game, and not make more of what people hated (Action).
You really need to hang around more Survival Horror fans... or, don't, actually. They are the worst people on the planet, and I mean that with the utmost sincerity. Survival Horror fans are like the Apple fans of the vidya world -- and Apple fans are like the New England Patriots fans of the tech world. And dear god if you've never spoken to a Patriots fan in your life, don't start now. Please. Love yourself.
But that's a rant for another time.
The #1 complaint I hear about TEW is that it was too hard and that the story was bad. The #2 complaint I hear about TEW is literally everything to do with the Survival Horror genre. Just butthurt Survival Horror fans bitching and whining and crying and moaning about what a disappointment the game was because they wanted it to be another Resident Evil, just without the name attached. People crying about how they went into the game expecting Sebastian to be Leon and were pissed off when they got something else entirely. People insisting
with so much urgency that you'd think their life was at stake that TEW IS NOT SURVIVAL HORROR DO NOT CALL IT SURVIVAL HORROR IT IS NOT SURVIVAL HORROR. There's no tank controls, there's no fixed camera, there's no backtracking, it's not scary, the characters sucked because they weren't campy and cheesy like RE's characters, there's not enough story, there's too much story, it's too much like Silent Hill, it's not enough like Silent Hill, it rips off RE4 too much, it doesn't take enough from RE4 -- it's such a disappointment and not what we expected from Mikami.
I've heard everything under the sun from Survival Horror purist pissbabies, and I don't know how you managed to escape from it all, but I sincerely envy you, because I am so goddamn tired of hearing it, because I feel like it's just everywhere. If you want to hear the worst of the worst, go watch Two Best Friends Play The Evil Within. Holy Jesus. And I like
those guys, but that shit's so obnoxious as to be unwatchable. Once again to quote Lewis Black, "The American medical profession doesn't know why we get an aneurysm. It's when a blood vessel bursts in our head for no apparent reason. There's a reason
Either way, this was supposed to be Mikami's attempts at returning to the root of "pure" Survival Horror -- whatever the hell that's even supposed to mean. It didn't work. I thought TEW was one of his best games ever, but unfortunately, I'm not the majority. If I was Bethesda, and if I was Matt Grandstaff especially who has to read every person on the internet's bullshit about this game, my personal takeaway from all that feedback wouldn't be "try harder to make it more like Survival Horror." Because I have been around Survival Horror pissbabies for long enough to know that you will never, ever, ever
be able to make any
concession for these people that will make them happy. They are the most miserable people in the vidya world, and the worst part is that they don't even realize that their own cynicism and disillusionment and nostalgia goggles is what's killing their own genre. What I would go back and tell my superiors, as Matt Grandstaff, would be "drop the Survival Horror pretense because next to no one bought into it."
And that's something that I have heard from people, even the SH pissbabies. If the game stopped trying so hard to be Survival Horror and improved its control scheme and improved its gameplay mechanics and actually played smoothly like the action game it was trying so hard not to be, people would have liked it more. Another big complaint I hear from people is that TEW never really got to grow into its own thing. I've heard people say that it tried too hard to be both Silent Hill and RE4 at the same time and fell short of both. Obviously I disagree, but revamping the gameplay mechanics into something that actually worked with
the player as opposed to against them for Survival Horror purposes could've really been a mark in its favor. Survival Action just might really be the way to go for TEW, since it's already there in the blueprints. It almost felt like TEW's shooting controls were clunky on purpose to up the sense of tension and urgency, which ended up coming back to kick itself in the ass in the later chapters when things became more action-oriented.
But like the dude on GAF said, it's still subject to change. If Tango's new game really IS TEW2, I honestly cannot wait to see the trailer for it -- and not just because I want confirmation of the game. It's because there's so many different directions you can take from an ending that was that
open-ended, and the sequel could be damn near anything.
Secondly, you are also claiming that a sequel can be called "Survival Action" because they made it easier. If that's the case, they would remove the Survival part. Because "Horror" describes the theme of the game. If they remove the theme description they are practically telling people "This franchise is no longer about horror ". And don't bring up the "genre name being too long" argument, because they can surely find ways to describe the game that emphasize horror and de-emphasize difficulty (Like "Horror Adventure").
I think you're kind of nitpicking my words a little bit, and I'm going to bring the "genre name being too long" argument back up because you continue to disregard the fact that the "Survival" in "Survival Action" is short for "Survival Horror" and I don't understand why.
Because a shorthand genre title does nothing to erase the thematic structure of a game. I hate having to keep bringing up TLoU because I can't stand that game, but that game was advertised and billed as Survival Action, but one single glance at any of the promo vids or trailers or art or anything
told you that it was a horror game, too. You're putting too much stock into the literal meaning of these labels and failing to grasp the concept that a genre is just a way of broadly categorizing something, and that a piece of media can have several different sub-genres. I'm a writer, for God's sake.
I've made money writing. I know how this shit works. I don't know what I'm doing wrong that I can't get the message across to you, but I'm really trying hard here to get you to understand. A broad genre title does not mean that a piece of fiction does not borrow from other genres -- especially in video games, when you have to take the gameplay into serious account in addition to the narrative when you're labeling your product. Waters get murky really, really fast -- especially in the horror genre, where fans are grossly overprotective in a really obnoxious way. That's why there's so many babies crying about how TEW was never "real" Survival Horror.
The only reason why I brought up difficulty is because I find Action games to be leaps and bounds easier than Horror games, and that's because they're made that way by design. Classic Survival Horror games had the shittiest controls imaginable, but those games somehow made it work in their favor because it helped create that feeling of helplessness from the player. You couldn't just maneuver around smoothly with good controls and you had to really decide which encounter you faced and which you fled from. If, in fact, Bethesda and Tango decided to polish up the combat of TEW for the sequel and made it a really smooth, easy to control TPS, it no longer qualifies for the "pure" Survival Horror title, because now it's just a TPS. That's why there's so many debates over whether or not RE4 should still be classified as "classic" Survival Horror.
If Bethesda came out banging their PR drums saying "the sequel will be Survival...Action!" What do you think the fanbase's reaction will be? Are they gonna be like: "Oh, so it's just like TLoU? That's awesome!" .... OR .... "Great, another horror franchise going action... I bet it would be more of that Ch.12 nonsense."
TEW2 will have the baggage of expectations from the first game.
I'm not sure that Bethesda would make such a big deal of the title of Survival Action the way that you and I are doing right now lmfao. I think that they would show off a trailer, then start showing off more of the game, and somewhere down the line they would mention "Yeah it falls more under the category of Survival Action than pure Survival Horror this time around, just because of the things we wanted to do with the environment and the story." And if the game looks solid up until that point, I don't think people will really care. I think that the people who wanted the game to just play better would be absolutely ecstatic to hear that the controls got a facelift, especially if everything else that's been shown off so far looks really fucking cool. And, yeah, there will be some people who will get turned off by that, but you're always going to have people who will be excited and people who will be threatening to shit on your car in rage no matter what you do, so there's no avoiding that. What it comes down to is which group that Bethesda thinks comprises the majority and which group they want to pander to. And that's something that, as of right now, we simply have no way of knowing. Though, of course, I would argue that a Survival Action game is a pretty good indicator.
It could be concept art from when the game was considered, but then scrapped. I assure you if Bethesda/Tango wanted to tease a sequel, they wouldn't do it via Nakamura's obscure twitter account.
Because even if a sequel was scrapped, that doesn't mean it's never gonna happen. Maybe they decided their next game will be a new IP, but a sequel to TEW2 is still on the roadmap. As for the Mystery L stuff, If I were her, I'd love to tease the fans and witness all the speculation too. Maybe it went like this: [ TEW2 planning scrapped >>> Nakamura posts her few art pieces she did for the planning phase, with some teasers for fun >>>> Tango/Bethesda higher ups order her to remove it because a TEW sequel is still on their radar. ]
That's actually the first time you've ever explained that to me, and now I finally understand why you feel that way. I still disagree with you wholeheartedly, but now I at least get it, you know? So, thank you for that. I mean it. Now I no longer see the need to bring it up ever again.
I looked at the official Playstation website and they listed it as Action Adventure, but I guess I should have done more research, my bad. I remember TLoU was called a plethora of things from fans and critics, lots of people would consider it Survival Horror, too. So I apologize if I seemed to call you a liar, it wasn't really my intent to paint you as someone who conjure up facts, just that you may have been misinformed.
I literally just showed you a game that it's developer called "Survival Action", and it does not resemble TLoU in any shape or form (Let It Die). I don't think publishers are scouring the internet to look up what Naughty Dog called TLoU's genre in a few obscure interviews just so they could ape it. Do another of these 10 seconds Google Searches and this time write "The Last Of Us Genre"... I assure you, you won't see the word "Survival Action"... But Action Adventure and even Survival Horror...
I'VE BEEN SAYING THAT IT'S LABELED AS "SURVIVAL HORROR, ACTION/ADVENTURE" FOR LIKE FOUR POSTS NOW!! THAT'S WHERE SURVIVAL ACTION COMES FROM!! Neil Druckmann didn't just reach behind him and start digging around in his asshole until he pulled out the words "Survival Action." Words have meanings! They came from somewhere!
Well, Let It Die was announced before TLoU was even released, so you can't really say that it's actively snubbing the game or the genre, because the timelines don't add up that way. Besides, it's a Suda 51 game, and Suda 51 is in this category along with Kojima and Swery (the dude who made Deadly Premonition) and maybe Kamiya of game developers who do literally anything they want because they know they can and fuck you and fuck your video game naming conventions. Damn near everything Suda 51 does is satire to begin with, so he's a huge exception to a lot of rules. You can't use satire as a baseline comparison. That's such a logical fallacy.
And you don't have to scour the internet to know what ND said about TLoU. Shit, I didn't even like the game all that much and I knew about its categorization as Survival Action off the top of my head the second I saw the original post in this thread, even before I felt the need to go into Google to prove it. Almost anyone who's a fan of the game has seen those interviews, and I would argue especially
game developers have seen at least some
of those interviews, simply because the game was so successful. I know just from following John Johanas on Twitter that he's a huge
fan of the game and a huge
fan of Naughty Dog and a huge
fan of Neil Druckmann's writing in general (which disappoints me on a profound level), and even if he's not directing the new Tango game, it's unreasonable to think that he's not bringing that influence into the office with him.
I've seen so many developers talk about how they make games that they want to play. Game devs take ideas from games they love. And since TEW plays so, so, so, so, so, so, SO similarly to TLoU to begin with, it's really not a far reach to think that Tango just went FUCK IT GO FULL TLOU WITH THE COMBAT SYSTEM BECAUSE WE SHOULD'VE DONE IT FROM DAY ONE.
All Bethesda is going to gain from labeling a TEW2 sequel "Survival Action" would be people moaning about how it's another horror franchise switching to action...Which, come and think of it, something that Bethesda/Tango bemoaned all the time in TEW's interviews/previews "Horror games these days are turning into action, so our game goes back to it's roots!") It would be funny if Bethesda did a 180 degrees.
You're right, actually, I do remember Mikami especially complaining about that. But, on the same token, there's a 90% chance he's not directing it this time around, and if whoever is
directing it wants to go that direction, I wonder if Mikami would really step in that far to stop them?
But I'm getting the sense from this conversation that you never actually played The Last of Us. First of all: don't. It's not really worth your time. But I wouldn't say that TLoU is on the same level as RE5 and RE6 in terms of being an action-based TPS. TLoU is this weird, kind of unique thing that I think deserves to coin the term "Survival Action" and claim it as its own, because there's really no other way to describe it. It does the TEW sneaking system on about the same level that TEW does it, and you're encouraged to sneak, because you get about as many resources (bullets, grenades, healing, things like that) in TLoU as you did in TEW, so saving up what you can when you can is vital. But there are more enemies in TLoU than there are in TEW, and other than the zambambos, they all have guns. So, when a firefight breaks out because you fucked up your sneaking, it turns into a cover shooter like Uncharted. Also, punching a dude until he dies is actually a viable combat decision in TLoU -- something that TEW was sorely lacking.
So, I mean... that's really the big difference between TEW, which calls itself Survival Horror, and TLoU, which calls itself Survival Action. TEW never turns into a proper cover shooter, even in Chapter 11 when it tries really really hard to. TLoU switches back and forth between action-based Uncharted sequences that test your reflexes and TEW-esque sneaky scary sequences that require a bit of strategy and planning. It's this really weird ebb and flow from one genre to the other and back again, but because the game is both an action game and a horror game, it works. So, turning TEW into something that more closely resembles TLoU isn't in any way a death sentence for the horror aspects of the game. It just adds a different style of gameplay alongside of them.
And if I'm right about my speculation of the sequel taking place mostly in the real world and dealing more with Mobius goons than we ever could have in the base game, it makes sense (at least to me) that Tango would want that blend of horror and action based on the different gameplay sequences that they'd have to put forward for the story. As much as I love TEW, the gameplay did get kind of samey towards the end, there. I would welcome a change of pace with open arms.
You don't need Siliconera or PSLifestyle to judge those numbers, you can look at previous games in the genre and make judgement. TEW's opening in Japan is OK, for comparison, the Dark Souls games sells more than twice those numbers. The Resident Evil games sell around 1M (more or less depending on which entry we're talking about).
As for the source:
Takahashi hopes that Tango's new title will be the first blockbuster release for ZeniMax Asia in the Japanese market. Skyrim was at the level of 200,000 to 300,000 units. He expects Tango's game to be one or two steps above that, selling 500,000 or even a million in the Japanese market alone.http://andriasang.com/con09l/mikami_interview/
Oooh thank you! Comparing it to DaS actually puts it into perspective, even without the quote. Resident Evil is a beast all of its own in a league all of its own, and the numbers that that series still continues to pull in are staggering when you consider what those games have become.
It's to hard find a takeaway from such statements... "Very Well" as in profitable? "Very Well" as in a new IP that succeeded?... Or "Very Well" as in BIG SUCCESS! SEQUEL NOW!!.... If it was the later, we wouldn't be having this conversation, because after Dishonored was out, Pete Hines (Or some other Bethesda PR) was very clear about them developing a sequel due to the first game's success. That's how well Dishonored did in sales.
Maybe read the interview.
"Dishonored is a good example of success with a new IP. So is The Evil Within." is a pretty unambiguous statement. He's putting them on the same level. And I know you don't want to believe me, but I think that Bethesda's been pretty clear about their continued support for TEW as a franchise since the game's release.
The other IPs that were absent weren't developed by them, stuff like WET and Brink are only published by Bethesda... TEW is a Bethesda developed game (and a recent one, at that). I wouldn't look at it as anything more than them showing off the variety of their profolio.
We've had this conversation before, and I don't really want to repeat it. But all I'm saying is that, if Bethesda wanted to distance themselves from TEW as a brand name, it would be extremely easy for them to do so. If they really wanted to drop it -- if they really
wanted to move on, they wouldn't keep drawing attention to it. You may have had a case with last year's B3 montage of all their games, but we're almost a year past that now, and a promo for a conference is under no real obligation to "show off a portfolio." Bethesda has no real reason to retweet TEW stuff that fans post on twitter, but they do it on the official Bethesda twitter. They don't do it very often, but they do do it. It's one thing to keep the TEW twitter alive (which, ironically enough, the TEW twitter posted while I was typing up my response to you yesterday. I wonder if Grandstaff is reading this shit and laughing at us because we're idiots). It's another thing to post TEW things on the Bethesda twitter.
It's not like I'm physically preventing you from being excited, it is as you say, we are all adults and we can make our own decisions. If you believe TEW2 is happening, then by all means, get hyped. That doesn't mean I can't write my own thoughts about the matter too. If you find my reasoning sensible, good, if not, feel free to not accept it. I'm not deliberately stamping at anyone's hopes... I only say what is likely going to happen based on the facts we know and some of my own speculation.
I had a feeling you'd say something like that. Unfortunately, being an adult doesn't absolve you from being a total buzzkill. Speculate all you want all day every day, but just try not to be such a downer about it, is all. Regardless of how it might seem sometimes, I actually enjoy having these debates with you. I enjoy talking to you and I think you're an intelligent person. But sometimes you do get intensely negative and just bring down the room. Don't be That Guy. No one wants to be That Guy. You're better than That Guy.