Rumor: Tango are working on a 'Survival Action' title

(Latest news and updates)

Re: Rumor: Tango are working on a 'Survival Action' title

Postby Rikitatsu » Feb 13, 2016 4:12 pm

Autoignition wrote:Okay, but... It's not the Japanese that are marketing it. I think you and I even had this argument before, but on opposite sides. I tried to compare Tango to other Japanese studios and you said it wasn't a fair comparison because it's published and marketed by Western Bethesda. Hell, this game may not even be directed by a Japanese man, if it is in fact Johanas at the helm.


Except this rumor isn't coming from Bethesda's marketing channels, but from inside Tango themselves. And I really doubt John is going to direct this since he is counted as a "game designer" in the careers page of the official website. Yes, I know directors are game designers as well, but in this case it refers to planners, people who work under the director.


You're also assuming an awful lot about Nakamura -- namely that she posted all of those pictures on her own actions and not because she was instructed to by a higher up to tease the game. If you're really going to take the "Nakamura knows better and wouldn't do that" stance then what's your explanation for deleting it all, when she never deletes her work off of Twitter? She was very coy about the whole thing, she knew what she was doing when posting and deleting the pics. So, either she didn't know better and that contradicts your claim, or she did know better and did it regardless, both of which begs the question "Why didn't she just say what it was right off the bat?"


You kidding? Nakamura deletes her stuff ALL THE TIME. In fact, she deleted her entire twitter account 3 times now I think. And some replies directed at me that contained no important information were deleted for no apparent reason. In fact, her Twitter account no longer exist (again). So no, her deleting those art works is not an evidence for her playing coy. She might have felt she created too much unwarranted excitement.

I know that you don't want a sequel. I get that. But sitting here and denying what Survival Action is even after being told and after admitting you didn't know what it was, is ludicrous to me. Like, are you trying to say that Tango is completely reinventing what the term Survival Action means just so that there's no horror in the game? There is far more evidence in favor of a sequel than against one.

Don't pretend there is a set meaning for the term 'Survival Action' when there are barely any game that have explicitly used it. What is a Survival Action? Is it as you say, a TLoU inspired game? (a game that wasn't described as 'Survival Action', by the way, despite your claims). Or is it something similar to Ark: Survival Evolved? Both have Survival and Action elements, but both are immensely different. I'm not gonna pretend what the hell type of game Tango is going to make next, but if the rumor is true, then they are going out of their way to not emphasize horror.

The only game I know that it's developer chose to call it Survival Action is Let It Die, a whacky multiplayer beat 'em up, made my a close friend of Mikami (Suda 51).

Evidence for:
+ Blatant cliffhanger ending in the final DLC - How the hell does this mean their next game is the sequel? It just means the game is open for continuity.

+ Great sales for a new horror IP - I wouldn't call it great, just good. We don't know the LTD numbers so far, but at least I know it didn't meet expectations in Japan. I remember when the game was being made Bethesda said they are aiming to break 500k and even 1M in Japan alone with TEW, but they didn't hit 200k last time I checked. Tango was their Japanese arm and they were banking on them and Mikami to break into the Japanese market with their "RE successor" , but I think even Fallout 4 did better there.

+ Attention still being given to TEW social media, including tumblr and twitter - I'll give you that.
+ TEW in marketing - Not sure I follow
+ Nakamura's tweets - That should be for against, as I explained above.
+ Survival Action - LOL
+ Hell, even the inside info from Jocifer's Tango buddy - I must have missed that, but while I trust Joe, I can't really place my trust in someone I don't know that happens to be his friend.

Evidence against:
+ Low sales compared to far reaching mass-marketed games not in niche genres
+ Lukewarm metacritic score
+ Some blurry pics in the background of a staff photo even though we can't tell what the hell they are - But you can tell from the color palatte they are not remotely close to anything in TEW. They are bright with a lot of vibrancy.


Answers in red.

Like... Again, I get that you don't want a sequel, but your continued confirmation bias is such a fucking bummer. Just in this thread alone, you extinguished someone else's excitement about a sequel, and you frustrate me and harsh my buzz constantly with your naysaying. This is a forum for people who loved TEW and are excited about news for it -- at least, that was my impression when I joined. It's so disheartening having a mod constantly squashing down people's excitement and telling them not to get their hopes up for something they love.

I'm being realistic, I don't want people here to get there hopes up only to be let down when it's time for an announcement. Remember when you kept on saying a TGS announcement was highly likely even though I explained it's way too early for that? Well, TGS came and went and there was not a single announcement. Lots of people would've been disappointed if they bought into your hype. All I was doing was keeping expectations in check, not because I hate TEW and don't want a sequel.
Image
User avatar
Rikitatsu
Moderator
 
Posts: 1320
Joined: November 2012
Has thanked: 152 times
Been thanked: 217 times

Re: Rumor: Tango are working on a 'Survival Action' title

Postby Autoignition » Feb 14, 2016 5:23 pm

Rikitatsu wrote:Except this rumor isn't coming from Bethesda's marketing channels, but from inside Tango themselves. And I really doubt John is going to direct this since he is counted as a "game designer" in the careers page of the official website. Yes, I know directors are game designers as well, but in this case it refers to planners, people who work under the director.


wrt Johanas, you're probably right, but it's just a possibility I'm throwing out there because there has been no indication thusfar who's directing the new game. I said months and months ago that it was unlikely that Johanas was going to direct it because he was busy working on the DLCs, but if this game is only 9-12 months old, it's now become a possibility. But there's no indication on the staff page either way, and his title as "Game Designer" is the closest thing on there. I'm not really trying to argue this point because there's no way to prove it one way or the other and tbh I don't really care that much anyway, just trying to explain why I put that out there on the table as a possibility.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if it came from Bethesda's marketing channels or inside of Tango studios. Bethesda are still the ones responsible for putting labels on it so that they can sell it accordingly. It's not like Bethesda has no say on things and keeps a completely hands-off approach during the development cycle. When you develop a game under a publisher like that, you tend to have a lot of conversations (especially early on) about the direction the game is going to go and what it's going to play like and all that shit. Is it really such an outrageous claim for me to say that Bethesda told Tango "Drop the 'pure survival horror' shit for the sequel because it pissed people off."?

You kidding? Nakamura deletes her stuff ALL THE TIME. In fact, she deleted her entire twitter account 3 times now I think. And some replies directed at me that contained no important information were deleted for no apparent reason. In fact, her Twitter account no longer exist (again). So no, her deleting those art works is not an evidence for her playing coy. She might have felt she created too much unwarranted excitement.


If that's true about her twitter account, then I concede this point. I know I'm not always right.

But, no, her deleting the works is not evidence for her playing coy. You're right about that. It was her statements around it that were the evidence. I had a few translations posted here on the forums. She kept talking about "mysteries" and told someone outright that she can't confirm nor deny the identity of a character art concept that was very clearly Joseph -- and those Joseph arts were among the first things she posted, but she kept posting new stuff. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that she thought she created too much unwarranted excitement, because people were freaking out right from the get-go and she just kept going.

The most telling thing she said was when she explained to someone that she never draws Sebastian unless she has to for story reasons... and yet there were some Seb pics among the ones she posted. And not just doodles, actual variations of character art. So, at the very least, we can surmise that someone in Tango instructed her to come up with designs for Sebastian. They couldn't have been unused designs for the first game, because they would've been in the art book.

But you never answered my question. If she did this of her own accord and not because she was ordered to, why couldn't she tell us about it? And I don't mean explain that it was scrapped -- I mean why not just pass it off as more TEW art that she was drawing for fun, since she doodles it a lot to begin with? Why refer to a character that was clearly Leslie as "Mystery L"? Why tell a fan that she couldn't confirm Joseph's identity? If it was really just concept art from a scrapped or rejected project, then what's the big secret about? If it's not being used, then ...?

What is a Survival Action? Is it as you say, a TLoU inspired game? (a game that wasn't described as 'Survival Action', by the way, despite your claims).


Excuse me. Ctrl+F "survival action" please.

http://gamestar.ru/english/1969.html
http://connecteddigitalworld.com/2013/0 ... ughty-dog/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/vi ... n-Says-Dev
http://www.gamesradar.com/the-last-of-us-review/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2013 ... e/2406663/

Not only was it called Survival Action, but Druckmann and Straley both wanted it to be the paradigm for the entire genre and said as much multiple times in different interviews. Considering that many people consider TLoU to be the greatest game they've ever played (an opinion I don't actually share, mind), I'm pretty sure that they've gotten their wish. Anyone who says they're making a Survival Action game is mimicking TLoU's formula; there's no feasible way that they're not, with how outrageously successful and critically acclaimed (and overrated) that game was. Here's a statement from Neil Druckmann directly, as found in one of those links:

"We’re still squarely within the genre that we feel Naughty Dog has demonstrated as one of our strengths – the Action genre. What we wanted to do was explore a new space within the Action genre which we are calling Survival Action. Survival in The Last of Us is about how to persevere in a world where civilization has collapsed amidst a fungal pandemic. Infected humans are running wild, nature has reclaimed what humans have made and the remaining human survivors must be willing to do anything to survive in this brutal, violent environment. We ultimately hope that The Last of Us will be the leading example of a Survival Action game."

Hm. The way he talks about TLoU's setting and gameplay there kinda makes you think of TEW, doesn't it?

Do not call me a liar about something that is easily verifiable with 10 seconds in Google.

I wouldn't call it great, just good. We don't know the LTD numbers so far, but at least I know it didn't meet expectations in Japan. I remember when the game was being made Bethesda said they are aiming to break 500k and even 1M in Japan alone with TEW, but they didn't hit 200k last time I checked. Tango was their Japanese arm and they were banking on them and Mikami to break into the Japanese market with their "RE successor" , but I think even Fallout 4 did better there.


Source for it not meeting expectations in Japan? I'm asking this honestly, because I admittedly do not know much about the Japanese video game market. I've seen the Siliconera article, if that's what you want to reach for. Siliconera looks at those numbers and says that the game sold poorly, but Playstation Lifestyle looks at those same numbers and says that the game sold quite well, so I really don't know which of those interpretations is correct.

One thing I can tell you for sure is that I have seen Pete Hines talking about how TEW did very well for a new IP, though, and how pleased they were with it. He compares it to Dishonored in terms of success, and Dishonored got its sequel.

With regards to your other points on my points which were too short for me to want to quote directly:
1. Cliffhanger bait means that the game was written with the intention of there being a sequel, meaning that Tango wants to make one. I'll admit this one is a little weak because ultimately the greenlight comes from the publisher and not just what the studio wants (a cold, harsh lesson we all learned from Alan Wake), but. yeah.
2. When I say "TEW in marketing" I mean, like. Take the B3 conference for example. The Keeper's on it. Whenever Bethesda markets itself as a brand and shows off all of their active IPs, TEW remains among them.

I'm being realistic, I don't want people here to get there hopes up only to be let down when it's time for an announcement. Remember when you kept on saying a TGS announcement was highly likely even though I explained it's way too early for that? Well, TGS came and went and there was not a single announcement. Lots of people would've been disappointed if they bought into your hype. All I was doing was keeping expectations in check, not because I hate TEW and don't want a sequel.


You know, I really hate this mindset of "if you don't hope for anything then you can't be disappointed." I was wrong about TGS, but that doesn't mean people should stop hoping or that I should stop being optimistic. No one asked you to keep expectations in check, as harsh as that sounds. Let people dream a little bit. It won't hurt you to do so. Let people get hyped, because at the end of the day their disappointment is not your responsibility. We're all adults here, and we can deal with our feelings of disappointment and move on in a reasonable fashion. All I'm asking of you is to not be a killjoy when people get excited, or preemptively step in so that they can't get excited.

Honestly, and I mean this with all sincerity, I just want them to announce the game already. Whatever it is, whether it's a sequel or a new IP, I just want them to announce it so that I can stop fighting with you about it. I'm tired of arguing with you every time any new bit of information comes out. One of us WILL be wrong. That's just the nature of this argument. I'm prepared to be that person, but until we know for sure, the one thing I ask from you is to not try to stamp out my small, flickering flames of hope in the meantime.
User avatar
Autoignition
Moderator
 
Posts: 130
Joined: April 2015
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 33 times
Favorite Title: Resident Evil 4
PSN: Autoignition

Re: Rumor: Tango are working on a 'Survival Action' title

Postby Rikitatsu » Feb 15, 2016 5:41 pm

Autoignition wrote:
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if it came from Bethesda's marketing channels or inside of Tango studios. Bethesda are still the ones responsible for putting labels on it so that they can sell it accordingly. It's not like Bethesda has no say on things and keeps a completely hands-off approach during the development cycle. When you develop a game under a publisher like that, you tend to have a lot of conversations (especially early on) about the direction the game is going to go and what it's going to play like and all that shit.

But the Tango insider was describing the type of game to his friend, not it's marketing label that Bethesda somehow decided in the beginning of development. Also, from the insider's words; "things might change" indicate they are still prototyping and experimenting with the game, and have not yet entered full production. It's highly unlikely to me that Bethesda already decided what to market it as.

Is it really such an outrageous claim for me to say that Bethesda told Tango "Drop the 'pure survival horror' shit for the sequel because it pissed people off."?


It's not outrageous to say that as much as it's highly speculative. I mean first of all, you are assuming too much about what Bethesda precieved as negative feedback from the players, most of the criticism surrounding the game was due to technical issues, lack of polish, black bars, late game action-y chapters, etc... I don't think you will find many people who would say it wasn't Survival Horror enough, in fact, that's pretty much what everybody praised the game for. Chapters like Ch.9 is pretty much universally loved even from people who hated the game (Something I observed in TEW's online discussions) and it's the most Pure Survival Horror-ish chapter. It would make sense for Bethesda to build upon what worked in the first game, and not make more of what people hated (Action).

Secondly, you are also claiming that a sequel can be called "Survival Action" because they made it easier. If that's the case, they would remove the Survival part. Because "Horror" describes the theme of the game. If they remove the theme description they are practically telling people "This franchise is no longer about horror ". And don't bring up the "genre name being too long" argument, because they can surely find ways to describe the game that emphasize horror and de-emphasize difficulty (Like "Horror Adventure").

If Bethesda came out banging their PR drums saying "the sequel will be Survival...Action!" What do you think the fanbase's reaction will be? Are they gonna be like: "Oh, so it's just like TLoU? That's awesome!" .... OR .... "Great, another horror franchise going action... I bet it would be more of that Ch.12 nonsense."

TEW2 will have the baggage of expectations from the first game.


But, no, her deleting the works is not evidence for her playing coy. You're right about that. It was her statements around it that were the evidence. I had a few translations posted here on the forums. She kept talking about "mysteries" and told someone outright that she can't confirm nor deny the identity of a character art concept that was very clearly Joseph -- and those Joseph arts were among the first things she posted, but she kept posting new stuff. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that she thought she created too much unwarranted excitement, because people were freaking out right from the get-go and she just kept going.

The most telling thing she said was when she explained to someone that she never draws Sebastian unless she has to for story reasons... and yet there were some Seb pics among the ones she posted. And not just doodles, actual variations of character art. So, at the very least, we can surmise that someone in Tango instructed her to come up with designs for Sebastian. They couldn't have been unused designs for the first game, because they would've been in the art book.

It could be concept art from when the game was considered, but then scrapped. I assure you if Bethesda/Tango wanted to tease a sequel, they wouldn't do it via Nakamura's obscure twitter account.

But you never answered my question. If she did this of her own accord and not because she was ordered to, why couldn't she tell us about it? And I don't mean explain that it was scrapped -- I mean why not just pass it off as more TEW art that she was drawing for fun, since she doodles it a lot to begin with? Why refer to a character that was clearly Leslie as "Mystery L"? Why tell a fan that she couldn't confirm Joseph's identity? If it was really just concept art from a scrapped or rejected project, then what's the big secret about? If it's not being used, then ...?

Because even if a sequel was scrapped, that doesn't mean it's never gonna happen. Maybe they decided their next game will be a new IP, but a sequel to TEW2 is still on the roadmap. As for the Mystery L stuff, If I were her, I'd love to tease the fans and witness all the speculation too. Maybe it went like this: [ TEW2 planning scrapped >>> Nakamura posts her few art pieces she did for the planning phase, with some teasers for fun >>>> Tango/Bethesda higher ups order her to remove it because a TEW sequel is still on their radar. ]

Not only was it called Survival Action, but Druckmann and Straley both wanted it to be the paradigm for the entire genre and said as much multiple times in different interviews. Considering that many people consider TLoU to be the greatest game they've ever played (an opinion I don't actually share, mind), I'm pretty sure that they've gotten their wish. Anyone who says they're making a Survival Action game is mimicking TLoU's formula; there's no feasible way that they're not, with how outrageously successful and critically acclaimed (and overrated) that game was. Here's a statement from Neil Druckmann directly, as found in one of those links:

"We’re still squarely within the genre that we feel Naughty Dog has demonstrated as one of our strengths – the Action genre. What we wanted to do was explore a new space within the Action genre which we are calling Survival Action. Survival in The Last of Us is about how to persevere in a world where civilization has collapsed amidst a fungal pandemic. Infected humans are running wild, nature has reclaimed what humans have made and the remaining human survivors must be willing to do anything to survive in this brutal, violent environment. We ultimately hope that The Last of Us will be the leading example of a Survival Action game."

Hm. The way he talks about TLoU's setting and gameplay there kinda makes you think of TEW, doesn't it?

Do not call me a liar about something that is easily verifiable with 10 seconds in Google.

I looked at the official Playstation website and they listed it as Action Adventure, but I guess I should have done more research, my bad. I remember TLoU was called a plethora of things from fans and critics, lots of people would consider it Survival Horror, too. So I apologize if I seemed to call you a liar, it wasn't really my intent to paint you as someone who conjure up facts, just that you may have been misinformed.

As for the "Survival Action" term, what you posted actually supports my argument. You say:
Anyone who says they're making a Survival Action game is mimicking TLoU's formula; there's no feasible way that they're not, with how outrageously successful and critically acclaimed (and overrated) that game was.

When I literally just showed you a game that it's developer called "Survival Action", and it does not resemble TLoU in any shape or form (Let It Die). I don't think publishers are scouring the internet to look up what Naughty Dog called TLoU's genre in a few obscure interviews just so they could ape it. Do another of these 10 seconds Google Searches and this time write "The Last Of Us Genre"... I assure you, you won't see the word "Survival Action"... But Action Adventure and even Survival Horror...

"Survival Action" is a term that hasn't really caught on like Survival Horror or MOBA, and the few games that adopts this term are immensely different. There are no set playstyles inherent to "Survival Action", it's a broad term with no Theme description. As long as there are Survival elements and Action elements, then you're set. All Bethesda is going to gain from labeling a TEW2 sequel "Survival Action" would be people moaning about how it's another horror franchise switching to action...Which, come and think of it, something that Bethesda/Tango bemoaned all the time in TEW's interviews/previews "Horror games these days are turning into action, so our game goes back to it's roots!") It would be funny if Bethesda did a 180 degrees.

Source for it not meeting expectations in Japan? I'm asking this honestly, because I admittedly do not know much about the Japanese video game market. I've seen the Siliconera article, if that's what you want to reach for. Siliconera looks at those numbers and says that the game sold poorly, but Playstation Lifestyle looks at those same numbers and says that the game sold quite well, so I really don't know which of those interpretations is correct.

You don't need Siliconera or PSLifestyle to judge those numbers, you can look at previous games in the genre and make judgement. TEW's opening in Japan is OK, for comparison, the Dark Souls games sells more than twice those numbers. The Resident Evil games sell around 1M (more or less depending on which entry we're talking about).

As for the source:

Takahashi hopes that Tango's new title will be the first blockbuster release for ZeniMax Asia in the Japanese market. Skyrim was at the level of 200,000 to 300,000 units. He expects Tango's game to be one or two steps above that, selling 500,000 or even a million in the Japanese market alone.

http://andriasang.com/con09l/mikami_interview/

One thing I can tell you for sure is that I have seen Pete Hines talking about how TEW did very well for a new IP, though, and how pleased they were with it. He compares it to Dishonored in terms of success, and Dishonored got its sequel.

It's to hard find a takeaway from such statements... "Very Well" as in profitable? "Very Well" as in a new IP that succeeded?... Or "Very Well" as in BIG SUCCESS! SEQUEL NOW!!.... If it was the later, we wouldn't be having this conversation, because after Dishonored was out, Pete Hines (Or some other Bethesda PR) was very clear about them developing a sequel due to the first game's success. That's how well Dishonored did in sales.

2. When I say "TEW in marketing" I mean, like. Take the B3 conference for example. The Keeper's on it. Whenever Bethesda markets itself as a brand and shows off all of their active IPs, TEW remains among them.

The other IPs that were absent weren't developed by them, stuff like WET and Brink are only published by Bethesda... TEW is a Bethesda developed game (and a recent one, at that). I wouldn't look at it as anything more than them showing off the variety of their profolio.

No one asked you to keep expectations in check, as harsh as that sounds. Let people dream a little bit. It won't hurt you to do so. Let people get hyped, because at the end of the day their disappointment is not your responsibility. We're all adults here, and we can deal with our feelings of disappointment and move on in a reasonable fashion. All I'm asking of you is to not be a killjoy when people get excited, or preemptively step in so that they can't get excited.


the one thing I ask from you is to not try to stamp out my small, flickering flames of hope in the meantime.

It's not like I'm physically preventing you from being excited, it is as you say, we are all adults and we can make our own decisions. If you believe TEW2 is happening, then by all means, get hyped. That doesn't mean I can't write my own thoughts about the matter too. If you find my reasoning sensible, good, if not, feel free to not accept it. I'm not deliberately stamping at anyone's hopes... I only say what is likely going to happen based on the facts we know and some of my own speculation.
Image
User avatar
Rikitatsu
Moderator
 
Posts: 1320
Joined: November 2012
Has thanked: 152 times
Been thanked: 217 times

Re: Rumor: Tango are working on a 'Survival Action' title

Postby Autoignition » Feb 15, 2016 10:42 pm

Rikitatsu wrote:But the Tango insider was describing the type of game to his friend, not it's marketing label that Bethesda somehow decided in the beginning of development. Also, from the insider's words; "things might change" indicate they are still prototyping and experimenting with the game, and have not yet entered full production. It's highly unlikely to me that Bethesda already decided what to market it as.


A genre's a genre, dude. If Bethesda and Tango decided together that the sequel was going to take a Survival Action approach as opposed to the "Pure Survival Horror" approach, then that's what everyone's going to call it. Sure, it could change depending on the way development goes -- maybe it will become more horror-oriented later on, or maybe it'll become more like a drama (there's certainly enough material in the canon for that to happen, imo), thereby switching it over more firmly in the Action/Adventure category.

But we don't know for sure. All we know is that, right now, it's a Survival Action game. And based on what we know of the "gold standard" of the Survival Action genre (TLoU), there are more than enough similarities between TEW and TLoU -- ESPECIALLY from a gameplay standpoint (for Christ's sake, the two games played almost identically to each other) -- for me to say that even base game TEW can very easily fall into the Survival Action genre. And I reiterate, I would be absolutely mindboggled if Bethesda put Tango to work on a game that was in the exact same genre as TEW without it being TEW. It's just such an extraordinary claim, in my mind.

It's not outrageous to say that as much as it's highly speculative. I mean first of all, you are assuming too much about what Bethesda precieved as negative feedback from the players, most of the criticism surrounding the game was due to technical issues, lack of polish, black bars, late game action-y chapters, etc... I don't think you will find many people who would say it wasn't Survival Horror enough, in fact, that's pretty much what everybody praised the game for. Chapters like Ch.9 is pretty much universally loved even from people who hated the game (Something I observed in TEW's online discussions) and it's the most Pure Survival Horror-ish chapter. It would make sense for Bethesda to build upon what worked in the first game, and not make more of what people hated (Action).


You really need to hang around more Survival Horror fans... or, don't, actually. They are the worst people on the planet, and I mean that with the utmost sincerity. Survival Horror fans are like the Apple fans of the vidya world -- and Apple fans are like the New England Patriots fans of the tech world. And dear god if you've never spoken to a Patriots fan in your life, don't start now. Please. Love yourself.

But that's a rant for another time.

The #1 complaint I hear about TEW is that it was too hard and that the story was bad. The #2 complaint I hear about TEW is literally everything to do with the Survival Horror genre. Just butthurt Survival Horror fans bitching and whining and crying and moaning about what a disappointment the game was because they wanted it to be another Resident Evil, just without the name attached. People crying about how they went into the game expecting Sebastian to be Leon and were pissed off when they got something else entirely. People insisting with so much urgency that you'd think their life was at stake that TEW IS NOT SURVIVAL HORROR DO NOT CALL IT SURVIVAL HORROR IT IS NOT SURVIVAL HORROR. There's no tank controls, there's no fixed camera, there's no backtracking, it's not scary, the characters sucked because they weren't campy and cheesy like RE's characters, there's not enough story, there's too much story, it's too much like Silent Hill, it's not enough like Silent Hill, it rips off RE4 too much, it doesn't take enough from RE4 -- it's such a disappointment and not what we expected from Mikami. I've heard everything under the sun from Survival Horror purist pissbabies, and I don't know how you managed to escape from it all, but I sincerely envy you, because I am so goddamn tired of hearing it, because I feel like it's just everywhere. If you want to hear the worst of the worst, go watch Two Best Friends Play The Evil Within. Holy Jesus. And I like those guys, but that shit's so obnoxious as to be unwatchable. Once again to quote Lewis Black, "The American medical profession doesn't know why we get an aneurysm. It's when a blood vessel bursts in our head for no apparent reason. There's a reason."

Either way, this was supposed to be Mikami's attempts at returning to the root of "pure" Survival Horror -- whatever the hell that's even supposed to mean. It didn't work. I thought TEW was one of his best games ever, but unfortunately, I'm not the majority. If I was Bethesda, and if I was Matt Grandstaff especially who has to read every person on the internet's bullshit about this game, my personal takeaway from all that feedback wouldn't be "try harder to make it more like Survival Horror." Because I have been around Survival Horror pissbabies for long enough to know that you will never, ever, ever be able to make any concession for these people that will make them happy. They are the most miserable people in the vidya world, and the worst part is that they don't even realize that their own cynicism and disillusionment and nostalgia goggles is what's killing their own genre. What I would go back and tell my superiors, as Matt Grandstaff, would be "drop the Survival Horror pretense because next to no one bought into it."

And that's something that I have heard from people, even the SH pissbabies. If the game stopped trying so hard to be Survival Horror and improved its control scheme and improved its gameplay mechanics and actually played smoothly like the action game it was trying so hard not to be, people would have liked it more. Another big complaint I hear from people is that TEW never really got to grow into its own thing. I've heard people say that it tried too hard to be both Silent Hill and RE4 at the same time and fell short of both. Obviously I disagree, but revamping the gameplay mechanics into something that actually worked with the player as opposed to against them for Survival Horror purposes could've really been a mark in its favor. Survival Action just might really be the way to go for TEW, since it's already there in the blueprints. It almost felt like TEW's shooting controls were clunky on purpose to up the sense of tension and urgency, which ended up coming back to kick itself in the ass in the later chapters when things became more action-oriented.

But like the dude on GAF said, it's still subject to change. If Tango's new game really IS TEW2, I honestly cannot wait to see the trailer for it -- and not just because I want confirmation of the game. It's because there's so many different directions you can take from an ending that was that open-ended, and the sequel could be damn near anything.

Secondly, you are also claiming that a sequel can be called "Survival Action" because they made it easier. If that's the case, they would remove the Survival part. Because "Horror" describes the theme of the game. If they remove the theme description they are practically telling people "This franchise is no longer about horror ". And don't bring up the "genre name being too long" argument, because they can surely find ways to describe the game that emphasize horror and de-emphasize difficulty (Like "Horror Adventure").


I think you're kind of nitpicking my words a little bit, and I'm going to bring the "genre name being too long" argument back up because you continue to disregard the fact that the "Survival" in "Survival Action" is short for "Survival Horror" and I don't understand why.

Because a shorthand genre title does nothing to erase the thematic structure of a game. I hate having to keep bringing up TLoU because I can't stand that game, but that game was advertised and billed as Survival Action, but one single glance at any of the promo vids or trailers or art or anything told you that it was a horror game, too. You're putting too much stock into the literal meaning of these labels and failing to grasp the concept that a genre is just a way of broadly categorizing something, and that a piece of media can have several different sub-genres. I'm a writer, for God's sake. I've made money writing. I know how this shit works. I don't know what I'm doing wrong that I can't get the message across to you, but I'm really trying hard here to get you to understand. A broad genre title does not mean that a piece of fiction does not borrow from other genres -- especially in video games, when you have to take the gameplay into serious account in addition to the narrative when you're labeling your product. Waters get murky really, really fast -- especially in the horror genre, where fans are grossly overprotective in a really obnoxious way. That's why there's so many babies crying about how TEW was never "real" Survival Horror.

The only reason why I brought up difficulty is because I find Action games to be leaps and bounds easier than Horror games, and that's because they're made that way by design. Classic Survival Horror games had the shittiest controls imaginable, but those games somehow made it work in their favor because it helped create that feeling of helplessness from the player. You couldn't just maneuver around smoothly with good controls and you had to really decide which encounter you faced and which you fled from. If, in fact, Bethesda and Tango decided to polish up the combat of TEW for the sequel and made it a really smooth, easy to control TPS, it no longer qualifies for the "pure" Survival Horror title, because now it's just a TPS. That's why there's so many debates over whether or not RE4 should still be classified as "classic" Survival Horror.

If Bethesda came out banging their PR drums saying "the sequel will be Survival...Action!" What do you think the fanbase's reaction will be? Are they gonna be like: "Oh, so it's just like TLoU? That's awesome!" .... OR .... "Great, another horror franchise going action... I bet it would be more of that Ch.12 nonsense."

TEW2 will have the baggage of expectations from the first game.


I'm not sure that Bethesda would make such a big deal of the title of Survival Action the way that you and I are doing right now lmfao. I think that they would show off a trailer, then start showing off more of the game, and somewhere down the line they would mention "Yeah it falls more under the category of Survival Action than pure Survival Horror this time around, just because of the things we wanted to do with the environment and the story." And if the game looks solid up until that point, I don't think people will really care. I think that the people who wanted the game to just play better would be absolutely ecstatic to hear that the controls got a facelift, especially if everything else that's been shown off so far looks really fucking cool. And, yeah, there will be some people who will get turned off by that, but you're always going to have people who will be excited and people who will be threatening to shit on your car in rage no matter what you do, so there's no avoiding that. What it comes down to is which group that Bethesda thinks comprises the majority and which group they want to pander to. And that's something that, as of right now, we simply have no way of knowing. Though, of course, I would argue that a Survival Action game is a pretty good indicator.

It could be concept art from when the game was considered, but then scrapped. I assure you if Bethesda/Tango wanted to tease a sequel, they wouldn't do it via Nakamura's obscure twitter account.

Because even if a sequel was scrapped, that doesn't mean it's never gonna happen. Maybe they decided their next game will be a new IP, but a sequel to TEW2 is still on the roadmap. As for the Mystery L stuff, If I were her, I'd love to tease the fans and witness all the speculation too. Maybe it went like this: [ TEW2 planning scrapped >>> Nakamura posts her few art pieces she did for the planning phase, with some teasers for fun >>>> Tango/Bethesda higher ups order her to remove it because a TEW sequel is still on their radar. ]


That's actually the first time you've ever explained that to me, and now I finally understand why you feel that way. I still disagree with you wholeheartedly, but now I at least get it, you know? So, thank you for that. I mean it. Now I no longer see the need to bring it up ever again.

I looked at the official Playstation website and they listed it as Action Adventure, but I guess I should have done more research, my bad. I remember TLoU was called a plethora of things from fans and critics, lots of people would consider it Survival Horror, too. So I apologize if I seemed to call you a liar, it wasn't really my intent to paint you as someone who conjure up facts, just that you may have been misinformed.


Apology accepted. :lol:

I literally just showed you a game that it's developer called "Survival Action", and it does not resemble TLoU in any shape or form (Let It Die). I don't think publishers are scouring the internet to look up what Naughty Dog called TLoU's genre in a few obscure interviews just so they could ape it. Do another of these 10 seconds Google Searches and this time write "The Last Of Us Genre"... I assure you, you won't see the word "Survival Action"... But Action Adventure and even Survival Horror...


I'VE BEEN SAYING THAT IT'S LABELED AS "SURVIVAL HORROR, ACTION/ADVENTURE" FOR LIKE FOUR POSTS NOW!! THAT'S WHERE SURVIVAL ACTION COMES FROM!! Neil Druckmann didn't just reach behind him and start digging around in his asshole until he pulled out the words "Survival Action." Words have meanings! They came from somewhere!

ahem.

Sorry.

Well, Let It Die was announced before TLoU was even released, so you can't really say that it's actively snubbing the game or the genre, because the timelines don't add up that way. Besides, it's a Suda 51 game, and Suda 51 is in this category along with Kojima and Swery (the dude who made Deadly Premonition) and maybe Kamiya of game developers who do literally anything they want because they know they can and fuck you and fuck your video game naming conventions. Damn near everything Suda 51 does is satire to begin with, so he's a huge exception to a lot of rules. You can't use satire as a baseline comparison. That's such a logical fallacy.

And you don't have to scour the internet to know what ND said about TLoU. Shit, I didn't even like the game all that much and I knew about its categorization as Survival Action off the top of my head the second I saw the original post in this thread, even before I felt the need to go into Google to prove it. Almost anyone who's a fan of the game has seen those interviews, and I would argue especially game developers have seen at least some of those interviews, simply because the game was so successful. I know just from following John Johanas on Twitter that he's a huge fan of the game and a huge fan of Naughty Dog and a huge fan of Neil Druckmann's writing in general (which disappoints me on a profound level), and even if he's not directing the new Tango game, it's unreasonable to think that he's not bringing that influence into the office with him.

I've seen so many developers talk about how they make games that they want to play. Game devs take ideas from games they love. And since TEW plays so, so, so, so, so, so, SO similarly to TLoU to begin with, it's really not a far reach to think that Tango just went FUCK IT GO FULL TLOU WITH THE COMBAT SYSTEM BECAUSE WE SHOULD'VE DONE IT FROM DAY ONE.

All Bethesda is going to gain from labeling a TEW2 sequel "Survival Action" would be people moaning about how it's another horror franchise switching to action...Which, come and think of it, something that Bethesda/Tango bemoaned all the time in TEW's interviews/previews "Horror games these days are turning into action, so our game goes back to it's roots!") It would be funny if Bethesda did a 180 degrees.


:lol: You're right, actually, I do remember Mikami especially complaining about that. But, on the same token, there's a 90% chance he's not directing it this time around, and if whoever is directing it wants to go that direction, I wonder if Mikami would really step in that far to stop them?

But I'm getting the sense from this conversation that you never actually played The Last of Us. First of all: don't. It's not really worth your time. But I wouldn't say that TLoU is on the same level as RE5 and RE6 in terms of being an action-based TPS. TLoU is this weird, kind of unique thing that I think deserves to coin the term "Survival Action" and claim it as its own, because there's really no other way to describe it. It does the TEW sneaking system on about the same level that TEW does it, and you're encouraged to sneak, because you get about as many resources (bullets, grenades, healing, things like that) in TLoU as you did in TEW, so saving up what you can when you can is vital. But there are more enemies in TLoU than there are in TEW, and other than the zambambos, they all have guns. So, when a firefight breaks out because you fucked up your sneaking, it turns into a cover shooter like Uncharted. Also, punching a dude until he dies is actually a viable combat decision in TLoU -- something that TEW was sorely lacking.

So, I mean... that's really the big difference between TEW, which calls itself Survival Horror, and TLoU, which calls itself Survival Action. TEW never turns into a proper cover shooter, even in Chapter 11 when it tries really really hard to. TLoU switches back and forth between action-based Uncharted sequences that test your reflexes and TEW-esque sneaky scary sequences that require a bit of strategy and planning. It's this really weird ebb and flow from one genre to the other and back again, but because the game is both an action game and a horror game, it works. So, turning TEW into something that more closely resembles TLoU isn't in any way a death sentence for the horror aspects of the game. It just adds a different style of gameplay alongside of them.

And if I'm right about my speculation of the sequel taking place mostly in the real world and dealing more with Mobius goons than we ever could have in the base game, it makes sense (at least to me) that Tango would want that blend of horror and action based on the different gameplay sequences that they'd have to put forward for the story. As much as I love TEW, the gameplay did get kind of samey towards the end, there. I would welcome a change of pace with open arms.

You don't need Siliconera or PSLifestyle to judge those numbers, you can look at previous games in the genre and make judgement. TEW's opening in Japan is OK, for comparison, the Dark Souls games sells more than twice those numbers. The Resident Evil games sell around 1M (more or less depending on which entry we're talking about).

As for the source:

Takahashi hopes that Tango's new title will be the first blockbuster release for ZeniMax Asia in the Japanese market. Skyrim was at the level of 200,000 to 300,000 units. He expects Tango's game to be one or two steps above that, selling 500,000 or even a million in the Japanese market alone.
http://andriasang.com/con09l/mikami_interview/


Oooh thank you! Comparing it to DaS actually puts it into perspective, even without the quote. Resident Evil is a beast all of its own in a league all of its own, and the numbers that that series still continues to pull in are staggering when you consider what those games have become.

It's to hard find a takeaway from such statements... "Very Well" as in profitable? "Very Well" as in a new IP that succeeded?... Or "Very Well" as in BIG SUCCESS! SEQUEL NOW!!.... If it was the later, we wouldn't be having this conversation, because after Dishonored was out, Pete Hines (Or some other Bethesda PR) was very clear about them developing a sequel due to the first game's success. That's how well Dishonored did in sales.


Maybe read the interview. :lol: "Dishonored is a good example of success with a new IP. So is The Evil Within." is a pretty unambiguous statement. He's putting them on the same level. And I know you don't want to believe me, but I think that Bethesda's been pretty clear about their continued support for TEW as a franchise since the game's release.

The other IPs that were absent weren't developed by them, stuff like WET and Brink are only published by Bethesda... TEW is a Bethesda developed game (and a recent one, at that). I wouldn't look at it as anything more than them showing off the variety of their profolio.


We've had this conversation before, and I don't really want to repeat it. But all I'm saying is that, if Bethesda wanted to distance themselves from TEW as a brand name, it would be extremely easy for them to do so. If they really wanted to drop it -- if they really wanted to move on, they wouldn't keep drawing attention to it. You may have had a case with last year's B3 montage of all their games, but we're almost a year past that now, and a promo for a conference is under no real obligation to "show off a portfolio." Bethesda has no real reason to retweet TEW stuff that fans post on twitter, but they do it on the official Bethesda twitter. They don't do it very often, but they do do it. It's one thing to keep the TEW twitter alive (which, ironically enough, the TEW twitter posted while I was typing up my response to you yesterday. I wonder if Grandstaff is reading this shit and laughing at us because we're idiots). It's another thing to post TEW things on the Bethesda twitter.

It's not like I'm physically preventing you from being excited, it is as you say, we are all adults and we can make our own decisions. If you believe TEW2 is happening, then by all means, get hyped. That doesn't mean I can't write my own thoughts about the matter too. If you find my reasoning sensible, good, if not, feel free to not accept it. I'm not deliberately stamping at anyone's hopes... I only say what is likely going to happen based on the facts we know and some of my own speculation.


I had a feeling you'd say something like that. Unfortunately, being an adult doesn't absolve you from being a total buzzkill. Speculate all you want all day every day, but just try not to be such a downer about it, is all. Regardless of how it might seem sometimes, I actually enjoy having these debates with you. I enjoy talking to you and I think you're an intelligent person. But sometimes you do get intensely negative and just bring down the room. Don't be That Guy. No one wants to be That Guy. You're better than That Guy.
User avatar
Autoignition
Moderator
 
Posts: 130
Joined: April 2015
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 33 times
Favorite Title: Resident Evil 4
PSN: Autoignition

Re: Rumor: Tango are working on a 'Survival Action' title

Postby robflee23 » Feb 17, 2016 2:13 am

Considering a lot of gaming publications have reported that one of the rumored reveals at Bethesda's E3 Conference will be TEW 2, then it will probably be this but a more action focused game (think Chapter 11 but the whole game). Honestly I'm just more interested if Mikami has any involvement.
robflee23
 
Posts: 67
Joined: July 2013
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 5 times
Favorite Title: Resident Evil

Re: Rumor: Tango are working on a 'Survival Action' title

Postby Autoignition » Feb 17, 2016 2:30 am

robflee23 wrote:Considering a lot of gaming publications have reported that one of the rumored reveals at Bethesda's E3 Conference will be TEW 2, then it will probably be this but a more action focused game (think Chapter 11 but the whole game). Honestly I'm just more interested if Mikami has any involvement.


Wait, what?? I haven't seen this. :o Not that game website predictions are reliably accurate, but the only thing I've seen so far is Rely On Horror talking about how they really hope there's news. Can you direct me to some links so that I can bask in the gloriousness of my own blind optimism? :D
User avatar
Autoignition
Moderator
 
Posts: 130
Joined: April 2015
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 33 times
Favorite Title: Resident Evil 4
PSN: Autoignition

Re: Rumor: Tango are working on a 'Survival Action' title

Postby Rikitatsu » Feb 17, 2016 7:26 pm

The only rumor I saw regarding TEW2 is one from some no-name site claiming Bethesda is set to reveal Elder Scrolls VI (which is ridiculous) at E3 2016 along with a potential sequel of TEW and Wolfenstien. The whole thing seemed so fake, I didn't give it any attention.

Autoignition wrote:
A genre's a genre, dude. If Bethesda and Tango decided together that the sequel was going to take a Survival Action approach as opposed to the "Pure Survival Horror" approach, then that's what everyone's going to call it. Sure, it could change depending on the way development goes -- maybe it will become more horror-oriented later on, or maybe it'll become more like a drama (there's certainly enough material in the canon for that to happen, imo), thereby switching it over more firmly in the Action/Adventure category.

I mean, if I were to describe a game to a friend, I would use the term that best describes it's gameplay and themes, not the one Bethesda's marketing department chose to label it. If I omit the horror part, it wouldn't be because the genre name is too long, and it wouldn't be because I expect him to immediately think of TLoU (which, again wasn't best known as "Survival Action", more on that below), it would be because the game does not have a horror focus. Otherwise I'd be deceiving him.

Which actually brings me to a pretty good point that I forgot to mention. If it was indeed a TEW2 sequel, wouldn't he/she say it outright? Why just say "a Survival Action title" if you could also specify it's a TEW2 sequel... Sounds like something too important to omit, especially when talking to a friend.


But we don't know for sure. All we know is that, right now, it's a Survival Action game. And based on what we know of the "gold standard" of the Survival Action genre (TLoU), there are more than enough similarities between TEW and TLoU -- ESPECIALLY from a gameplay standpoint (for Christ's sake, the two games played almost identically to each other) -- for me to say that even base game TEW can very easily fall into the Survival Action genre. And I reiterate, I would be absolutely mindboggled if Bethesda put Tango to work on a game that was in the exact same genre as TEW without it being TEW. It's just such an extraordinary claim, in my mind.

I think you and I are gonna go in circles about this Survival Action thing, you keep talking about 'Survival Action' as if it's a known and recognizable sub-genre, with set playstyles that are examplified be TLoU, aka the genre's golden standard. When in reality, barely anyone calls their games that, and the few that does, are totally different in their gameplay systems and themes. And even TLoU, which is supposed to be the genre standard, is known most as Action Adventure or Survival Horror... I know you've said:

I'VE BEEN SAYING THAT IT'S LABELED AS "SURVIVAL HORROR, ACTION/ADVENTURE" FOR LIKE FOUR POSTS NOW!! THAT'S WHERE SURVIVAL ACTION COMES FROM!! Neil Druckmann didn't just reach behind him and start digging around in his asshole until he pulled out the words "Survival Action." Words have meanings! They came from somewhere!

But you assume that the word 'Survival' is short for "Survival Horror", which I don't think any of these ND interviews you posted claimed. I'm fairly certain "Survival" refers to, you know, Survival... Resources scavenging, scarce ammunation, etc... And Action refers to the basic nature of the gameplay (3rd person shooter).

So yeah, the average gamer (and even me, someone who keeps close tabs on the industry) never knew TLoU was explicitly called 'Survival Action' by it's developers... What do you think Bethesda would gain from copying the genre's name explicitly and risk confusion with TEW's fanbase when only few people know it? Even the their official sites doesn't explicitly say 'Survival Action'... And wikipedia, where most people get their information from, doesn't call it that. Says a lot about how well defined this 'Survival Action' genre.

You really need to hang around more Survival Horror fans... or, don't, actually. They are the worst people on the planet, and I mean that with the utmost sincerity. Survival Horror fans are like the Apple fans of the vidya world -- and Apple fans are like the New England Patriots fans of the tech world. And dear god if you've never spoken to a Patriots fan in your life, don't start now. Please. Love yourself.

But that's a rant for another time.

The #1 complaint I hear about TEW is that it was too hard and that the story was bad. The #2 complaint I hear about TEW is literally everything to do with the Survival Horror genre. Just butthurt Survival Horror fans bitching and whining and crying and moaning about what a disappointment the game was because they wanted it to be another Resident Evil, just without the name attached. People crying about how they went into the game expecting Sebastian to be Leon and were pissed off when they got something else entirely. People insisting with so much urgency that you'd think their life was at stake that TEW IS NOT SURVIVAL HORROR DO NOT CALL IT SURVIVAL HORROR IT IS NOT SURVIVAL HORROR. There's no tank controls, there's no fixed camera, there's no backtracking, it's not scary, the characters sucked because they weren't campy and cheesy like RE's characters, there's not enough story, there's too much story, it's too much like Silent Hill, it's not enough like Silent Hill, it rips off RE4 too much, it doesn't take enough from RE4 -- it's such a disappointment and not what we expected from Mikami. I've heard everything under the sun from Survival Horror purist pissbabies, and I don't know how you managed to escape from it all, but I sincerely envy you, because I am so goddamn tired of hearing it, because I feel like it's just everywhere. If you want to hear the worst of the worst, go watch Two Best Friends Play The Evil Within. Holy Jesus. And I like those guys, but that shit's so obnoxious as to be unwatchable. Once again to quote Lewis Black, "The American medical profession doesn't know why we get an aneurysm. It's when a blood vessel bursts in our head for no apparent reason. There's a reason."

That's probably what skewed your impression regarding TEW's critcisms, you hang around Survival Horror purists/websites. I think those are a small subset of what Bethesda consider their audience. I visit a lot of neutral gaming discussion forums like NeoGAF, Gametrailers, GameFaqs, etc... And have seen nothing but seething hate for the action-y chapters, and unanimous love for Chapter 9, (And to lesser extent: CH. 7, 5, 3.)

And that's something that I have heard from people, even the SH pissbabies. If the game stopped trying so hard to be Survival Horror and improved its control scheme and improved its gameplay mechanics and actually played smoothly like the action game it was trying so hard not to be, people would have liked it more. Another big complaint I hear from people is that TEW never really got to grow into its own thing. I've heard people say that it tried too hard to be both Silent Hill and RE4 at the same time and fell short of both. Obviously I disagree, but revamping the gameplay mechanics into something that actually worked with the player as opposed to against them for Survival Horror purposes could've really been a mark in its favor. Survival Action just might really be the way to go for TEW, since it's already there in the blueprints. It almost felt like TEW's shooting controls were clunky on purpose to up the sense of tension and urgency, which ended up coming back to kick itself in the ass in the later chapters when things became more action-oriented.

You know what, those are actually valid suggestions... If TEW didn't try to cripple it's own gameplay systems to enhance horror, people might have liked it more... But only TEW. Not it's (potential) sequel. Because again, a sequel will come with a lot of expectations. People who liked the first game will be utterly disappointed to hear it's taking an action route, people who didn't won't care because they've experienced the quality of the first game's action sequences in Ch.11, 12, etc... As a publisher, labeling the sequel "action" instead of "horror" is a sure-fire way to kill any goodwill the first game generated. People wouldn't think of TLoU, they would think of RE6.

I'm going to bring the "genre name being too long" argument back up because you continue to disregard the fact that the "Survival" in "Survival Action" is short for "Survival Horror" and I don't understand why.

And as I explained above, there's no reason to think that this is true. It's just an educated guess on your part. The way I see it, it refers to resource scarcity and the nature of the game's world.

I hate having to keep bringing up TLoU because I can't stand that game, but that game was advertised and billed as Survival Action, but one single glance at any of the promo vids or trailers or art or anything told you that it was a horror game, too. You're putting too much stock into the literal meaning of these labels and failing to grasp the concept that a genre is just a way of broadly categorizing something, and that a piece of media can have several different sub-genres. I'm a writer, for God's sake. I've made money writing. I know how this shit works. I don't know what I'm doing wrong that I can't get the message across to you, but I'm really trying hard here to get you to understand. A broad genre title does not mean that a piece of fiction does not borrow from other genres -- especially in video games, when you have to take the gameplay into serious account in addition to the narrative when you're labeling your product. Waters get murky really, really fast -- especially in the horror genre, where fans are grossly overprotective in a really obnoxious way. That's why there's so many babies crying about how TEW was never "real" Survival Horror.


I'm talking about how the switch from Survival Horror to Survival Action would effect the game's image and reception. I understand perfectly that genres terms are broad generalizations, in a new IP, you can call your game Survival Action and show the horror part to the media, and people would gladly call it Survival Horror. (TLoU)... But a franchise that had the term "Pure Survival Horror" slapped on every piece of PR to get a sequel called "Survival Action"? It would send a clear message that the game abandoned horror completely. Even if the game's media contained horror themes/scenarios.


Well, Let It Die was announced before TLoU was even released, so you can't really say that it's actively snubbing the game or the genre, because the timelines don't add up that way. Besides, it's a Suda 51 game, and Suda 51 is in this category along with Kojima and Swery (the dude who made Deadly Premonition) and maybe Kamiya of game developers who do literally anything they want because they know they can and fuck you and fuck your video game naming conventions. Damn near everything Suda 51 does is satire to begin with, so he's a huge exception to a lot of rules. You can't use satire as a baseline comparison. That's such a logical fallacy.


Actually Let It Die was revealed a year after TLoU was launched (E3 2014, to be exact), not sure where you've gotten your information from.

Suda 51 made ridiculous and campy games in the past, but also made serious ones. I fail to see how that is relevant to naming the genre. I think you're getting a bit stubborn in thinking that 'Survival Action' belongs entirely to TLoU and anyone who does anything different is fucking with the naming conventions. When in fact, Survival Action isn't really a 'thing' like MOBAs, for example. I bet Suda didn't even know TLoU was called 'Survival Action'.

But I'm getting the sense from this conversation that you never actually played The Last of Us. First of all: don't. It's not really worth your time. But I wouldn't say that TLoU is on the same level as RE5 and RE6 in terms of being an action-based TPS. TLoU is this weird, kind of unique thing that I think deserves to coin the term "Survival Action" and claim it as its own, because there's really no other way to describe it. It does the TEW sneaking system on about the same level that TEW does it, and you're encouraged to sneak, because you get about as many resources (bullets, grenades, healing, things like that) in TLoU as you did in TEW, so saving up what you can when you can is vital. But there are more enemies in TLoU than there are in TEW, and other than the zambambos, they all have guns. So, when a firefight breaks out because you fucked up your sneaking, it turns into a cover shooter like Uncharted. Also, punching a dude until he dies is actually a viable combat decision in TLoU -- something that TEW was sorely lacking.

So, I mean... that's really the big difference between TEW, which calls itself Survival Horror, and TLoU, which calls itself Survival Action. TEW never turns into a proper cover shooter, even in Chapter 11 when it tries really really hard to. TLoU switches back and forth between action-based Uncharted sequences that test your reflexes and TEW-esque sneaky scary sequences that require a bit of strategy and planning. It's this really weird ebb and flow from one genre to the other and back again, but because the game is both an action game and a horror game, it works. So, turning TEW into something that more closely resembles TLoU isn't in any way a death sentence for the horror aspects of the game. It just adds a different style of gameplay alongside of them.

I feel like If I answered this I would be repeating much of what I said above, so I'll say: You are arguing about what Tango could add to TEW's formula, and I'm arguing about how the genre's name change will be precieved by everyone.

And you're correct, I've never played TLoU, I did, however, watch the entire game on youtube to see what's this famous story that moved people to tears... I didn't think it was anything special in that regard. I know some people will eat me alive if they read this.

Maybe read the interview. :lol: "Dishonored is a good example of success with a new IP. So is The Evil Within." is a pretty unambiguous statement. He's putting them on the same level. And I know you don't want to believe me, but I think that Bethesda's been pretty clear about their continued support for TEW as a franchise since the game's release.

I read the interview a long time ago, and I still don't see this as an unambiguous statement. He is saying TEW is a success, and so is Dishonored (Both are Bethesda's new IPs, and that's the reason for comparison). He is not saying TEW was as successful as Dishonored. By the way, this is what Hines said shortly after the first Dishonored came out:

"I can tell you that Dishonored is far exceeding our sales expectations, which is especially cool considering it’s new IP facing a host of well-established franchises this quarter," said PR chief Pete Hines. "We did terrific numbers again this past weekend, both in stores and on Steam, where Dishonored was listed as the #1 selling title over the holiday weekend. And Dishonored has really sold well overseas.

"So, we’re very pleased and appreciate all the fans that have supported Dishonored and Arkane. We clearly have a new franchise."

http://www.destructoid.com/bethesda-dis ... 9407.phtml

He didn't say the same for The Evil Within.

We've had this conversation before, and I don't really want to repeat it. But all I'm saying is that, if Bethesda wanted to distance themselves from TEW as a brand name, it would be extremely easy for them to do so. If they really wanted to drop it -- if they really wanted to move on, they wouldn't keep drawing attention to it. You may have had a case with last year's B3 montage of all their games, but we're almost a year past that now, and a promo for a conference is under no real obligation to "show off a portfolio." Bethesda has no real reason to retweet TEW stuff that fans post on twitter, but they do it on the official Bethesda twitter. They don't do it very often, but they do do it. It's one thing to keep the TEW twitter alive (which, ironically enough, the TEW twitter posted while I was typing up my response to you yesterday. I wonder if Grandstaff is reading this shit and laughing at us because we're idiots). It's another thing to post TEW things on the Bethesda twitter.

You keep on assuming that TEW will be abandoned if Tango's next game is a new IP. It doesn't have to be (And it probably won't be), so there is no reason for them to "distance" themselves from TEW.

I had a feeling you'd say something like that. Unfortunately, being an adult doesn't absolve you from being a total buzzkill. Speculate all you want all day every day, but just try not to be such a downer about it, is all. Regardless of how it might seem sometimes, I actually enjoy having these debates with you. I enjoy talking to you and I think you're an intelligent person. But sometimes you do get intensely negative and just bring down the room. Don't be That Guy. No one wants to be That Guy. You're better than That Guy.

If my speculation might put a damper on some people's hype, then so be it. I'm not sure what you want me to do... Not share my thoughts because it may go against some people's hopes?... And what if it did? I honestly doesn't see anything wrong with that. It's better to entertain the idea that TEW2 might not happen, instead of believing it wholeheartedly and get your soul crushed when it's time for E3 (Or when ever the game might be revealed).

I also like debating with you, and immensely value your insight for TEW's story and lore... But this time I think this debate gotten too damn long and lost it's focus... I have no idea what we're arguing about anymore... I think it has something to do with Survival Action. It's 2.AM and I gotta sleep...
Image
User avatar
Rikitatsu
Moderator
 
Posts: 1320
Joined: November 2012
Has thanked: 152 times
Been thanked: 217 times

Re: Rumor: Tango are working on a 'Survival Action' title

Postby Morir es vivir » Feb 17, 2016 8:04 pm

I would love to see either a new ip or a sequel but i fear that leaving psycho now for another project could hurt it somehow.
User avatar
Morir es vivir
 
Posts: 193
Joined: June 2013
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 24 times
Favorite Title: REmake-DCut-TEW

Re: Rumor: Tango are working on a 'Survival Action' title

Postby Autoignition » Feb 17, 2016 9:43 pm

Morir es vivir wrote:I would love to see either a new ip or a sequel but i fear that leaving psycho now for another project could hurt it somehow.


I agree wholeheartedly, and I'll get to that later on down in this post.

Rikitatsu wrote:I mean, if I were to describe a game to a friend, I would use the term that best describes it's gameplay and themes, not the one Bethesda's marketing department chose to label it. If I omit the horror part, it wouldn't be because the genre name is too long, and it wouldn't be because I expect him to immediately think of TLoU (which, again wasn't best known as "Survival Action", more on that below), it would be because the game does not have a horror focus. Otherwise I'd be deceiving him.

Which actually brings me to a pretty good point that I forgot to mention. If it was indeed a TEW2 sequel, wouldn't he/she say it outright? Why just say "a Survival Action title" if you could also specify it's a TEW2 sequel... Sounds like something too important to omit, especially when talking to a friend.


Hmm... I don't know if I exactly agree there. No matter how good of friends you are, if an NDA is really strict, then you're kinda beholden to that. It's one thing to leak stuff that's already announced or easily assumed -- like DLC -- but leaking the confirmation of a sequel OR the confirmation of a new IP before the official announcement is a pretty huge deal. If all this guy could say was "Right now we're calling it Survival Action, and that's all I can really tell you" then that's that and his hands are tied beyond that point. I think it's a bit of a lofty claim to say that omitting the game title is telling of anything.

But, you know, for all we know this guy's friend DID tell him the working title of the game but impressed upon him that he can't leak that information. That's very likely. I've had to do that with friends before, like, "ok I'll tell you this thing but you CANNOT TELL ANYONE THE DETAILS." And if they're a good friend, they'll keep their mouths shut.

That's probably what skewed your impression regarding TEW's critcisms, you hang around Survival Horror purists/websites. I think those are a small subset of what Bethesda consider their audience. I visit a lot of neutral gaming discussion forums like NeoGAF, Gametrailers, GameFaqs, etc... And have seen nothing but seething hate for the action-y chapters, and unanimous love for Chapter 9, (And to lesser extent: CH. 7, 5, 3.)


See, this is something that I both agree and disagree with. I disagree in that I do think that those purists were their target audience for the first game. I absolutely believe that with all of my heart. I was still working part-time at Gamestop when TEW was released, and every single promo I saw for that game emphasized the fact that it was Shinji Mikami making it -- Shinji Mikami, the grandfather of Survival Horror, the man responsible for the Resident Evil series -- and he's attempting to recapture the true essence of classic Survival Horror and bring it back to its roots. Every single damn promo on Gamestop TV just repeated that over and over and over again, whether it was a trailer or a gameplay video or a message from those two talking head clowns that are the face of Gamestop TV. They wanted that purist fanbase, and they tried so hard to appeal to them in marketing. They sold TEW on Mikami's name and his work on Resident Evil, and that's why so many people went into the game expecting it to be Resident Evil -- and why so many people were so disappointed when it wasn't.

But I don't think that that's their only target fanbase moving forward anymore, and that's where I agree with you. There were a huge amount of people who ended up loving the game, but none of them were purists. I come from the Tumblr side of fandom (which I've since abandoned because seriously fuck that place), and weirdly enough, most people in the actual fandom part of the fanbase got there from watching Markiplier's LP. Now, I can't stand the man myself, but I did watch his LP of the game because I'd heard he loved it and I was so starved and desperate for someone else to just enjoy the goddamn game (because you're right, I hang around purists way too much), and his only real complaint was that the controls worked against him too often. I do think that we live in an age where LPers can really, really influence the direction of game franchises, because they influence the opinions of the millions of people who watch them. And, last I heard, Mark had over 5 million subscribers. (And, I hate to keep using John Johanas in my arguments, but he's the only one on Twitter who speaks and tweets consistently in English -- he's watched Mark's LP.)

So, at the end of the day, what you have is a group of purists who were your original audience who want you to drop the Survival Horror pretense because their big dumb baby brains can't handle the idea of technology evolving within a genre, and you also have the influence of someone as huge as Markiplier saying that he wants a better-playing, more action-oriented game -- until, of course, he got to the DLCs and declared that he wanted them to axe the combat all together and make it a pure stealth thing, which we all know is never going to happen in a main game of TEW. But still. It gives you something to think about.

And, like, even within the circles that I follow, I've seen people say that the reason why they hated the later chapters so much is because the combat system wasn't built to handle them correctly -- and, to a certain extent, I think they're right. If you want to have action sequences like that and have parts of your game that are just huge combat arenas, then your shooting controls need to work better. So, I mean... you can still have the spookiness of Chapter 9 in parts of your game, but if you tweak the controls so that they're much more serviceable and make the action sections actual real action sections, with good combat and cover and all that other crap, it no longer qualifies for the "pure" Survival Horror genre title anymore, and I think that that's something that Mikami especially would realize and understand. The game can still be a horror game, but it's no longer an attempt to capture that feeling of classic Survival Horror anymore. Hence why the title of Survival Action could very much fit.

You know what, those are actually valid suggestions... If TEW didn't try to cripple it's own gameplay systems to enhance horror, people might have liked it more... But only TEW. Not it's (potential) sequel. Because again, a sequel will come with a lot of expectations. People who liked the first game will be utterly disappointed to hear it's taking an action route, people who didn't won't care because they've experienced the quality of the first game's action sequences in Ch.11, 12, etc... As a publisher, labeling the sequel "action" instead of "horror" is a sure-fire way to kill any goodwill the first game generated. People wouldn't think of TLoU, they would think of RE6.


I'm talking about how the switch from Survival Horror to Survival Action would effect the game's image and reception. I understand perfectly that genres terms are broad generalizations, in a new IP, you can call your game Survival Action and show the horror part to the media, and people would gladly call it Survival Horror. (TLoU)... But a franchise that had the term "Pure Survival Horror" slapped on every piece of PR to get a sequel called "Survival Action"? It would send a clear message that the game abandoned horror completely. Even if the game's media contained horror themes/scenarios.


See, again, that's where I disagree, because like I said in my last post, I don't think they'll make as big of a deal out of the title of Survival Action as we're doing. I think it's something that they're going to just mention offhandedly after they've already showed off a decent portion of the game -- specifically so that they don't immediately turn their pre-existing fanbase away. Because, okay, say that E3 is tomorrow. And they walk out on stage tomorrow and show a trailer for TEW2. And that's all they do. Only people who read NeoGAF (and this forum now, I suppose) know that it's being classified as Survival Action right now. People are going to look at that trailer and just see a TEW sequel -- and their minds are going to go to horror. And as time goes on, they'll reveal a little bit more, but not much -- because, think about it, how much have they really revealed about Dishonored 2 in the last year since its announcement? Not a whole lot. But for all of those months, people are going to have it stewing in their head TEW2 = horror. And that's a hard thing to unlearn if it's stuck in there for long enough.

So as release gets closer and gameplay videos start to surface, people will be able to look at them and see that the horror aspects are still there -- it's still a horror game at its core, and that expected spookiness is definitely there. So, it just confirms what's been in their heads all these months since the initial announcement. More gameplay videos surface, and Bethesda makes mention that the controls are a bit tighter and easier to manage. Great. Awesome. People are thrilled. Game looks good and the controls are better now. Just what we wanted. And then one day Bethesda says offhandedly, "We're really calling it more Survival Action than Pure Survival Horror this time around just because of how much smoother the control scheme is and how much easier it is to shoot" -- do you really think that the people who were highly invested up until that point will see that and go "Well obviously it's going to be RE6." I say no -- because obviously it's not RE6, because they've been showing the game off all this time and not a damn bit of it looked like RE6.

That's what I think is going to happen. That is my prediction for this game's marketing strategy. I think that Bethesda will talk about TEW as a game in and of itself and just completely abandon all labels for it until they reasonably can't anymore -- because labels bit them in the ass the first time around. And for that reason, I think that Bethesda will avoid labeling the game as to not create anymore upset among purists or anyone else, and they'll just let the game speak for itself. I really think that genre is something that they're going to avoid in most of their marketing. But I do also think that there's going to be an expectation there from the marketers for people to immediately draw that parallel to TLoU -- and I think they may even do it themselves. Even SquareEnix announced that they're taking cues from TLoU for FF15 -- and I honestly cannot think of a game that needs to take a cue from TLoU in order to sell well less than FF15. That game sells itself, and Squenix is still riding that train regardless. So, I mean, it's not unprecedented. Devs and marketing teams are comfortable with drawing comparisons between their games and TLoU. And there's a very good reason for that.

Actually Let It Die was revealed a year after TLoU was launched (E3 2014, to be exact), not sure where you've gotten your information from.


The wiki, actually! It links back to this article, dated April 2013. TLoU was released June 2013.

Suda 51 made ridiculous and campy games in the past, but also made serious ones. I fail to see how that is relevant to naming the genre. I think you're getting a bit stubborn in thinking that 'Survival Action' belongs entirely to TLoU and anyone who does anything different is fucking with the naming conventions. When in fact, Survival Action isn't really a 'thing' like MOBAs, for example. I bet Suda didn't even know TLoU was called 'Survival Action'.


Ah, I think you're getting the wrong idea about my insistence on TLoU being the gold standard for Survival Action. I mean, let's be clear: Suda DOES do whatever he wants. He just does, but that's more of an auxiliary point than my main one. My main point is that TLoU was probably the most successful new IP of the last five years at least -- if not in pure sales (because I'm sure a game like Destiny sold better volume), then in just sheer fame and notoriety. That's just a fact. You and I both agree that it's nothing special, but this is the reality of the world we live in. TLoU is hailed by many as the greatest game ever made. TEW already plays so similarly to TLoU that I was actually baffled when I picked up TEW for the first time, because the gameplay of the first few chapters especially was so damn near identical that I had to believe it was done on purpose. That's one hell of a coincidence, otherwise.

So, when I go on the TEW fan forums and I see that Tango's new game is being classified as Survival Action -- a term that Neil Druckmann himself decided on for TLoU -- that's why my mind immediately went to "it has to be a sequel." There's just SO MUCH of TLoU in TEW's gameplay already, and I know that Johanas is SO big of a fan of TLoU that I can't fathom the idea of TEW not being influenced by it -- and I also can't fathom the idea that he's not one of the main people involved in this project, considering he both wrote AND directed the two Kidman DLCs. And judging by the fact that TEW didn't sell quite as spectacularly as Bethesda would've hoped, it makes sense in my head for TEW2 to toddle after Big Brother TLoU even closer to try to make their audience happier. That's why I'm so insistent on TLoU being the gold standard for Survival Action -- because in this particular case, with so much of TLoU already existing in TEW to begin with, it seems too big of a stretch to be a coincidental naming. I can't reconcile the idea of Tango being blissfully unaware of anything Neil Druckmann said about TLoU when I know how much of that game's influence already exists in TEW. I just can't.

(For God's sake, they gave Sebastian Joel's beard in one of the Nakamura concept art tweets.)

And you're correct, I've never played TLoU, I did, however, watch the entire game on youtube to see what's this famous story that moved people to tears... I didn't think it was anything special in that regard. I know some people will eat me alive if they read this.


LMAO you get no eating alive from me, good sir. I'm honestly shocked that no one's called out my hypocrisy of shitting on TLoU constantly while having an avatar from TLoU. The game's story was not great. Tess, however, was awesome.

I read the interview a long time ago, and I still don't see this as an unambiguous statement. He is saying TEW is a success, and so is Dishonored (Both are Bethesda's new IPs, and that's the reason for comparison). He is not saying TEW was as successful as Dishonored. By the way, this is what Hines said shortly after the first Dishonored came out:

"I can tell you that Dishonored is far exceeding our sales expectations, which is especially cool considering it’s new IP facing a host of well-established franchises this quarter," said PR chief Pete Hines. "We did terrific numbers again this past weekend, both in stores and on Steam, where Dishonored was listed as the #1 selling title over the holiday weekend. And Dishonored has really sold well overseas.

"So, we’re very pleased and appreciate all the fans that have supported Dishonored and Arkane. We clearly have a new franchise."

http://www.destructoid.com/bethesda-dis ... 9407.phtml

He didn't say the same for The Evil Within.


Good to know, actually! I didn't much care for Dishonored myself (and I preordered the damn thing), so I don't know a lot about the game's reception or Bethesda's reaction to it. All I know is that I looked at that one interview and felt like Hines was making a direct comparison between the games.

You keep on assuming that TEW will be abandoned if Tango's next game is a new IP. It doesn't have to be (And it probably won't be), so there is no reason for them to "distance" themselves from TEW.


Yes, I do, and here's why: because even though TEW sold very well for a horror game, it didn't sell anywhere near the numbers that more mainstream AAA titles sell, which meant that the hype for the game didn't last after release for very long (it burned real hot real fast and then burned out; after The Consequence came and went, people moved on), and now, because of that fact, next to NO ONE is still talking about this game in even remotely the same depth or volume as they were right after release with the exception of like a handful of people on Tumblr (I mean, for fuck's sake, look at how dead these very forums are, even) -- so, in the end, I really don't feel that they can afford to put off a sequel. I don't think that this game's name recognition can withstand the test of time like that, especially because there's no GOTY edition for people to just pick up and play. If they turn away from TEW now, they're going to have so much difficulty getting people to care again a few years down the line.

Survival Horror is very much a niche genre that does not by any means have mass appeal, and building up a franchise is something that's going to take a lot of constant care and cultivation until it becomes a mainstay in vidya and a horror behemoth like RE or SH or even Five Nights at Freddy's, otherwise people will lose interest very quickly. Even Fatal Frame 5 has been selling like absolute dogshit in the west, and that's a series that has a long-standing history behind it and is pretty universally hailed as one of the great classics of the genre -- and that's because Nintendo refused to bring Fatal Frame 4 overseas and translate it, so people lost interest. The only time that Bethesda has to make a sequel work is right now, because right now TEW is the only game on anyone's radar from Tango.

So, what happens if Tango releases a new IP and it just blows TEW out of the water in terms of sales? Bethesda will never go back to TEW. And if the new IP sucks ass or is even just mediocre, they might consider going back to TEW, but it's unlikely because now Tango has two not objectively spectacular games under their belt, which would make people wary of any sequel for either game or really anything else they release afterwards -- and Bethesda might just cut them loose all together, at that point. If they want the money out of this name, and if they want to make a franchise out of it, then they have to do it now. Period.

If my speculation might put a damper on some people's hype, then so be it. I'm not sure what you want me to do... Not share my thoughts because it may go against some people's hopes?... And what if it did? I honestly doesn't see anything wrong with that. It's better to entertain the idea that TEW2 might not happen, instead of believing it wholeheartedly and get your soul crushed when it's time for E3 (Or when ever the game might be revealed).

I also like debating with you, and immensely value your insight for TEW's story and lore... But this time I think this debate gotten too damn long and lost it's focus... I have no idea what we're arguing about anymore... I think it has something to do with Survival Action. It's 2.AM and I gotta sleep...


LMFAO get some rest, bro. I'm just glad to hear there's no bad blood between us, and I'm glad to hear that these have been the friendly debates that I've thought they were.
User avatar
Autoignition
Moderator
 
Posts: 130
Joined: April 2015
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 33 times
Favorite Title: Resident Evil 4
PSN: Autoignition

Re: Rumor: Tango are working on a 'Survival Action' title

Postby liontamer » Feb 18, 2016 12:25 pm

robflee23 wrote:Considering a lot of gaming publications have reported that one of the rumored reveals at Bethesda's E3 Conference will be TEW 2, then it will probably be this but a more action focused game (think Chapter 11 but the whole game). Honestly I'm just more interested if Mikami has any involvement.


Please provide a source if possible!
User avatar
liontamer
 
Posts: 37
Joined: February 2015
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 1 time
Favorite Title: Resident Evil 4
PSN: breakdownthewall

PreviousNext

Return to News and Updates

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests