The Consequences of Death, and The Checkpoint VS Save System

(Discuss the game)

The Consequences of Death, and The Checkpoint VS Save System

Postby Rikitatsu » Jun 22, 2013 4:11 pm

The discussion in The Last of Us thread inspired me to write this topic. :P

Skip to 9:45:

phpBB [video]


For a Survival Horror, the consequences of Death are very important. If there were checkpoints after every 5 minutes, and you lost nothing each time you died, this will remove a lot of the tension to stay alive against all those monsters, the "horror" effect will soon fade away.

But on the other hand, a Save Point system like in the old RE is frustrating to the average gamer these days, people will just turn off the system if they lose 2 hours of playtime because they couldn't outrun Chainsaw Guy in that corridor. Bethesda wants to sell a game, after all.


So what should be included in The Evil Within? Something that won't frustrate today's average Joe's, while at the same time making said Joe dread the possibility of death by these monsters. Is there such a middle-ground?


I think there are two solutions, both are applied by one great game called Dark Souls.


Solution#1:

You lose something when dying. In Dark Souls, if you die, you lose all your Souls and Humanity (Which can still be retrieved, but not if you die twice in a row). If the guys at Tango could come up with something like that, a consequence of dying, this could make any player dread getting torn by a Chainsaw even if he had to repeat this 10 times via checkpoints. What could the player lose? That is the important question. We don't know much about The Evil Within's mechanics, so that question is something Tango and Bethesda should ask themselves. But if they find a way to implement a system where there are grave consequences for dying, then I believe they've got themselves a great middle ground.



Solution #2:

Save Points are important to me, the feeling of coming across a Save Point is like meeting up with your only friend in an overly-oppressive world, which gives the player a much needed sense of relief. Dark Souls has this system (Bonfires) in a modern (and difficult) game, yet it was not very frustrating. Why?

First of all, Save Points (Bonfires) are not very far from each other, however, between this Save Point and the next one is a lot of enemies and challenges, so if you die, you won't lose a lot of playtime, but you will have to face those challenges again.

Secondly, in Dark Souls, if you exit the game without saving/resting at a bonfire, you can still continue at the same point when you boot up the game again. Dying, however, restarts you at the last Bonfire you rested it. What this means is that people who get frustrated at some point in the game and decide to quit, they can resume their session without restarting at a bonfire. In other words, the "Save Point" is for deaths only, but when you quit, the game autosaves anywhere, anytime.


So, what do YOU think Bethesda and Tango should use in this game? You must keep in mind that they want to sell a game to the mainstream market, so even if you wish for a Ink/Typewriter system, don't think they will ever use that.
Image
User avatar
Rikitatsu
Moderator
 
Posts: 1602
Joined: November 2012
Has thanked: 206 times
Been thanked: 249 times

Re: The Consequences of Death, and The Checkpoint VS Save Sy

Postby Cyberote » Jun 22, 2013 5:18 pm

I would personally love to see the classic RE typewriter-style save system, but like you said, it's probably too frustrating for the average gamer. It really invoked a sense of dread and amplified the horror a tad because you REALLY did not want to lose so many minutes or hours. I really dread that on A or S rank runs. But now I'm getting off topic.

I like solution 2. Dark Souls was a frustrating game, but it was good frustration if that makes sense. Games these days are way too easy to beat, then along came Dark Souls and pissed everyone off with it's difficulty. I do like the bonfire saving system and I think it could work well in The Evil Within. I think it's a great middleground between classic RE's typewriters and modern games' checkpoints every 5 minutes. We should've asked Antonio if he knew anything about the save system.
User avatar
Cyberote
 
Posts: 151
Joined: November 2012
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: The Consequences of Death, and The Checkpoint VS Save Sy

Postby Mr. Sean » Jun 23, 2013 3:40 am

I think the optimal save system is the one in RE4. Place a save points where you will be able to run across them every 20-30 minutes. When you die, losing 20 minutes of progress will hurt but not so much that the loss of time is overly frustrating. Saving should also be done manually instead of the game saving automatically.

This type of save system works best for someone like me who feels lucky to get 30 minutes a night to game.
"There'll be time for explanations later. And hopefully, some sex."
User avatar
Mr. Sean
What A Guy!
 
Posts: 77
Joined: April 2013
Location: The Multiverse
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: The Consequences of Death, and The Checkpoint VS Save Sy

Postby Yama » Jul 08, 2013 12:01 pm

I like the idea of a traditional and perhaps even limited save point, it adds both strategy and suspense in it's own way. Not necessarily in a frustrating manner either (having to redo certain segments), but in a suspenseful manner. Longing for one after horrific areas or segments is a gruesome feeling and I especially like the idea of creating a facade around these safe havens and eventually having enemies or danger invade upon them.
User avatar
Yama
Since 1996...
Site Admin
 
Posts: 324
Joined: October 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Re: The Consequences of Death, and The Checkpoint VS Save Sy

Postby ProgenitorCastle » Jul 09, 2013 12:09 am

Perhaps the Dark Souls methods could work...on Normal difficulty

On a higher difficulty level, something reminiscent of the typewriter system could take over...

In such a scenario, both the Average Joe and Hardcore groups are covered
User avatar
ProgenitorCastle
 
Posts: 148
Joined: April 2013
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: The Consequences of Death, and The Checkpoint VS Save Sy

Postby Rikitatsu » Jul 09, 2013 9:57 am

I think, in the end, what I'm looking forward most in a "save point" is the sense of relief and safety you feel when you stumble upon one, like entering a Save Room in Resident Evil, or looking at a Bonfire from far away in Dark Souls.

phpBB [video]


:(
Image
User avatar
Rikitatsu
Moderator
 
Posts: 1602
Joined: November 2012
Has thanked: 206 times
Been thanked: 249 times

Re: The Consequences of Death, and The Checkpoint VS Save Sy

Postby Mr. Sean » Jul 09, 2013 9:22 pm

The only problem I have with the Dark Souls saving system is I'm not sure what you would lose when you die. The only way I can see it working is if you lose resources. If resources are limited, then making a couple of mistakes would completely break the game. You would start running into situations that are impossible forcing you to start over. The only way I can think to remedy it is to make ammo and item drops really frequent which might inadvertently encourage run and gun tactics, breaking the game again.

That system works for Dark Souls because although losing a bunch of souls sucks, enemies will respawn and you can get them back. Its difficult but its fair. In a game like this where what you need to progress is supposed to be very limited and finite, losing anything is pretty much losing too much.
"There'll be time for explanations later. And hopefully, some sex."
User avatar
Mr. Sean
What A Guy!
 
Posts: 77
Joined: April 2013
Location: The Multiverse
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: The Consequences of Death, and The Checkpoint VS Save Sy

Postby Rikitatsu » Jul 10, 2013 8:28 am

^ Yeah, that's the main issue. What COULD you lose? Obviously I'm not saying you have to lose resources when you die, as that would be frustrating as you said. It would help the speculation if we knew more about TEW's gameplay.
Image
User avatar
Rikitatsu
Moderator
 
Posts: 1602
Joined: November 2012
Has thanked: 206 times
Been thanked: 249 times

Re: The Consequences of Death, and The Checkpoint VS Save Sy

Postby Rikitatsu » Jul 18, 2013 12:08 am

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=167

Welp...Could have been worse. It's like RE4 basically.
Image
User avatar
Rikitatsu
Moderator
 
Posts: 1602
Joined: November 2012
Has thanked: 206 times
Been thanked: 249 times


Return to The Evil Within | Psychobreak

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: akoron17, dan76, Google [Bot], sycnix and 17 guests